Have you ever dated or hooked up with someone whom you later found out to be a 'pick up artist'? (self.AskWomen)

AskWomen

149 ups - 38 downs = 111 votes

When and how did you make the discovery? How did he compare to 'regular' guys before you discovered him to be a pick up artist? How did your perception of him change after finding out?

140 comments submitted at 07:38:31 on Feb 27, 2014 by Josent

  • [-]
  • NewBeginningsEnd
  • 163 Points
  • 09:58:13, 27 February

A guy I dated a few months ago appeared to be perfect, but I kept having a big nagging feeling about him that was keeping me from investing anything more in to him until I was able to figure out what was going on. He had done absolutely everything right, I loved his personality, I had met his friends, and my friends were all won over by him and thought I was crazy. A little under a month in of seeing him about 1-2 times a week the feeling just never went away and I decided to look on OkCupid to see if he had a profile. He did, and the things on it were complete opposites of who he acted like around me; his match questions expressed a lack of respect for women and very chauvinistic ideas, his entire profile reaked of casual sex, and most of his profile was just a copy paste of something that I knew I had seen before. So I googled his user name. Turns out the guy had been a pick up artist for over 6 years; he is very active in the scene and so practiced that he basically now uses what they call "natural game" which is why I could not pick up on it but knew something was off. Natural game does not use the weird opinion openers, negs, cube game, the other tell tale PUA stuff. He had all intentions of essentially gaming me into a relationship with him then using manipulation to keep me at a lower position throughout our relationship so that he could control everything. I saw a few posts where he described how he did this to his last girlfriend of two years (who I look like the twin of) and it fit with how he was with me. He is also actively trying to hook up with strippers. He essentially had two lives going on; who he was trying to be so that I would like him and who he was.

Comparing him to other guys, he was a lot more of a challenge, both in good ways and bad. Most guys tend to overtext me or are intimidated by me. He was not. He gave me just enough attention to keep me interested but never got me bored or feel bothered, which is great since I like my space. He did not really take me on typical dates; instead we would usually have a whirlwind of activity going to multiple places. Figured out this is called a mini date and PUAs use it to make the girl feel like they have spent more time together than they actually have. He was very fun and one of the few guys I have met who could keep up with my energy level, banter, and sarcasm. Most guys get possessive when another guy hits on me in front of them; he acted like it was just a fact of life or would mock whatever line the guy tried to use on me. He seemed disconnected from the moment sometimes, almost like he was bored or over thinking. Sometimes this made him seem disingenuous when he would talk. I never had sex with him in part because of the feeling I was having about him and in part because he seemed to treat foreplay as a means to an end, not something to be enjoyed in and of itself. He would not take instruction on what I liked and seemed to rush things. He showed me less attention and was less responsive to me than any other guy I have hooked up with. He also seemed to made assumptions about me just based on me being female; he assumed I wanted kids (hate them) and would make comments about how one day I would be a mom and I found out he had jokingly talked about having a kid with me one day to his roommate (this happened the last time I saw him and was one of the things that tipped me into being creeped out enough to want to find out more about him online). He would never accept when I told him I was more logical than emotional and he seemed to try to compete with me for dominance or try to find ways to show how manly he was, like picking me up or trying to tell me how little I was too often. He would also try to covertly brag about himself in ways that came off as a means of seeking validation instead.

After I found out, I was completely grossed out and felt like I had dodged a bullet. I found him pretty sad that he hated himself so much that he became this contrived persona. It is like he stopped being human and there was not a way to separate where he began and the game ended. Though he liked me enough to break some of the dumb rules PUAs have and risk being "beta", at the end of the day I would have never trusted him. I dropped him without explanation since I thought anything he said would be a lie and it just would not be worth it. Plus I was hurt since I had been forthright with him and it felt like a betrayal of sorts. I saw him a few weeks after the last time we were together; we were at the same concert and I spotted him across the room. Usually he is life of the party, this time he was just sitting there slumped staring at me. He has no clue why I just disappeared on him and is so much into the PUA motto of don't chase after the girl that he could never even ask me what happened.

  • [-]
  • rhinecat
  • 22 Points
  • 14:17:43, 27 February

> but I kept having a big nagging feeling about him

Read this as "a big negging feeling" and I'm like, "well, that should have been a tipoff!" ;)

Seriously, I am glad you didn't get more invested with this guy.

  • [-]
  • fckingmiracles
  • 1 Points
  • 15:09:33, 27 February

> He [...] is so much into the PUA motto of don't chase after the girl

Ah, well. At least there is one upside to it!

  • [-]
  • Svataben
  • 19 Points
  • 12:52:53, 27 February

Damn, I'm sorry that happened to you.

Good for you that you trust your instincts.

  • [-]
  • Josent
  • 1 Points
  • 15:21:55, 27 February

Wow. Good stuff. At one point, I almost lost hope on actually getting a reply from someone who only found out after dating the guy. Thank you for taking the time to share this.

  • [-]
  • Gummybear0313
  • 33 Points
  • 13:37:14, 27 February

While I do not approve of PUAs in general, I have to say one thing to their credit.

>>I found him pretty sad that he hated himself so much that he became this contrived persona.

While this may be true of him, I find it often isn't. Many of these people are bordering on narcissistic with how much they love themselves

  • [-]
  • flintenweib
  • 1 Points
  • 15:19:39, 27 February

Narcissism is more closely rooted in self-hatred than self-love. Narcissists usually love and project a more idealized, abstracted version of themselves. They do not love themselves.

  • [-]
  • FrndlyMisanthrpe
  • 1 Points
  • 15:58:55, 27 February

It really is a disorder. Mental illness of all types is hard to live with, especially if they make you act like an aashole

  • [-]
  • kornberg
  • 1 Points
  • 15:16:52, 27 February

You can also be incredibly narcissistic and still hate yourself. They actually go hand in hand pretty well. Instead of acknowledging the aspects of yourself that you don't like and working on improving yourself, your narcissism directs you to buy in to the line of thinking where anyone who doesn't think you're amazing is the bad guy, which absolves you of the burden of dealing with your problems. It's a complicated web of denial and self loathing and entitlement.

  • [-]
  • Krystalraev
  • 15 Points
  • 13:52:17, 27 February

They either hate themselves so much that they develop personalities that make other people like them so they can control, and they usually hate women and have serious mommy issues. I dated one of these guys- they could all be carbon copies of each other. They're lost causes.

  • [-]
  • mccoyed
  • 1 Points
  • 15:18:56, 27 February

But, but... Crazy Stupid Love!

  • [-]
  • tremondo
  • 1 Points
  • 15:59:16, 27 February

you know what, I have a childhood friend who I am still in contact with, lets say he could be my best friend from that time and still is to some point now.

The last couple of years hes been a pua, paid and coached by "the best" to a point where they now hire him for their seminars.

He gets tons of girls all the time. Thing is hes changed into a most narcissistic and genuinely uncaring person when it comes to matters of the heart. All he cares for is numbers.

The thing is, I can see the self hate he has for himself. Always judging from appearances, trying to get bigger and larger muscle wise to the point where hes using steroids ( i want to get fit too but under my own banner.) Always excluding people from certain social circles based on just how important they are, never caring for just going with the moment. I learnt a long time ago that when you exclude people for some frivilous reason, dont be surprised when someone you really like excludes you for this reason.

It worries me, but at the same time gives me a clear indication of what NOT to do. Sure, I could change myself into those PUAs. Anything in life is just a matter of time and determination, but i have other areas of my life where I want to apply that to (my musical aspirations.) But if i did change myself into a pua, and even though id be satisfying (temporarily) certain urges, I know nothing concrete would really come from it. I know Id turn into one of those people, so shallow, always caring about appearances and always looking for more and dropping people like a bad habit, usually really mentally hurting them.

I find the last couple of years learning how to battle through lifes problems makes you stronger. Learning pua stuff just teaches you to become a conman.

and i dont know many conmen who are truly happy.

  • [-]
  • prolepunk
  • 1 Points
  • 15:59:10, 27 February

The cause of narcissistic disorder is usually some sort of deep childhood trauma, so yeah, at some level the narcissistic behaviour is a deeply-rooted coping mechanism.

  • [-]
  • TheRipsawHiatus
  • 9 Points
  • 13:27:22, 27 February

Ugh, I'm sorry you had to deal with that bullshit. But that last paragraph was so satisfying to read. You couldn't have handled that situation any better.

  • [-]
  • MoonPenatrator
  • 7 Points
  • 14:09:30, 27 February

> Natural game does not use the weird opinion openers, negs, cube game, the other tell tale PUA stuff.

I'm sort of out of the loop here. What are the weird opinion openers, negs, and cube games?

  • [-]
  • NoSnowmen
  • 1 Points
  • 14:35:10, 27 February

Different kinds of 'how to be memorable and interesting' tips. A lot of them boil down to 'do something no one else would do, probably because other people know better'.

I'm guessing OP's ex tried to be less directly confrontational.

  • [-]
  • fckingmiracles
  • 1 Points
  • 15:14:29, 27 February

"Negging" means to say insulting things to get her 'interested'.

"Oh, beautiful eyes. If only your right one wasn't bigger than the other one."
"Oh, nice legs. If only your face could compete."

They think that wrapping a compliment up in an insult will make the woman* come out of "her shell" by being enraged about it and thus starting a conversation with the guy.

*they actually don't refer to women as women but as numbers, i.e. "I approached a 7.5 yesterday". But that's a whole lotta different problem.

  • [-]
  • MoonPenatrator
  • 1 Points
  • 15:43:41, 27 February

Wait... people actually do that? Like, outside of high school? I remember high school kids doing that stuff, but everyone grew out of that, and I don't think I ever heard the word "negging." TIL

  • [-]
  • randomlurker82
  • 1 Points
  • 16:05:25, 27 February

The amounts of books, seminars, and blogs about it are fucking DISTURBING.

  • [-]
  • SolidPurpleZebra
  • 1 Points
  • 15:52:22, 27 February

Well... "people"...

  • [-]
  • joeph1sh
  • 1 Points
  • 14:44:33, 27 February

Disclaimer: I'm not a PUA, but I have seen the concepts before and am a bit disgusted that they'll resort to emotional manipulation instead of trying to create actual relationships where they can be happy.

More or less the weird opinion openers work to A create a conversation and B throw the target off guard and disorient so she doesn't shoot them down. Negs is reference to negging, the practice of giving back-handed compliments about what a woman may or may not be self-conscious about. It's a put down that makes her want to be validated, i.e. something where ideally for the PUA, she'll go to him to be validated because he's the closest guy there and she'll show him that her butt isn't that fat or whatever. Cube game is a psychological profiling/"mind reading" tool. He asks the woman to describe an imaginary cube and their descriptions should show (or are said to show) certain aspects of their personality and emotional state. The PUA interprets these things and takes advantage of that knowledge to appear like he knows her intimately when he really just put together some psuedo-science bs in a pretty package.

In short, those types of things are emotionally manipulative copy-paste that the average PUA will use until he reaches the point that /u/NewBeginningsEnd was describing where he can't have a relationship without emotional manipulation and he's gotten so good at it he doesn't need copy-paste stuff anymore.

  • [-]
  • MoonPenatrator
  • 1 Points
  • 15:50:52, 27 February

Oh yeah I've actually heard of the cube game, and played it with my friends, just to see what we get. I actually think it's a fun game but would never use it as something when approaching a woman, just a fun game to play with friends.

As for the opinion opener and negging, I don't understand how that would work on anyone. I feel like it makes no sense at all, it's just being an asshole in a nutshell. That's interesting how one becomes so "good" at it that they don't use that stuff but are still destroying themselves in the end.

Well glad I at least know what they are now, and glad that I've never used any of these methods unknowingly.

  • [-]
  • FrndlyMisanthrpe
  • 1 Points
  • 16:01:34, 27 February

I had no idea the cube thing was a pick up artist thing. I did that with my friends as well. It was just a way to profile how we thought. Mine was actually kind of revealing, because I made everything line up and was all pretty stereotypical.

  • [-]
  • revengemaker
  • 1 Points
  • 17:21:24, 27 February

A really simple neg is when guys have a photo of themselves with a girl on their dating profile. Granted some say this is my sister or whatever but what try are trying to do is drive out the competitive nature of women who think "humph (rage) I'm just as hot as her"

  • [-]
  • aufleur
  • 1 Points
  • 15:50:59, 27 February

>we were at the same concert and I spotted him across the room. Usually he is life of the party, this time he was just sitting there slumped staring at me. He has no clue why I just disappeared on him and is so much into the PUA motto of don't chase after the girl that he could never even ask me what happened.

wwoooowww, what a jerk.

but way to go.... puts on glasses... Detective.

  • [-]
  • captainlavender
  • 2 Points
  • 11:57:01, 27 February

This is a serious fear of mine. Sorry you had to deal with all of that.

  • [-]
  • pootlepower
  • 3 Points
  • 13:44:40, 27 February

This is utterly horrifying D: Good work on sniffing him out like that.