What is life like for an unattractive man? (self.AskMen)

{AskMen}

1612 ups - 486 downs = 1126 votes

For men, it seems like being a 'provider' is no longer enough to make one desirable in this day in age. Equal rights and traditional family roles have changed a lot over the last few decades and women are more independent than they ever have been. I will be the first to admit that I am particularly shallow when it comes to men I date and I really wish I wasn't this way.

Earlier, while in a grocery store, I saw a man in front of me who was clearly losing his battle with baldness but was purchasing Rogaine. This got me thinking about what it must feel like to be put into a woman's shoes when it comes to personal appearance, knowing that you have to worry about aesthetic competition among your fellow men. The poor guy was really nervous and I wanted to just kiss him and tell him that it will all be ok, but I don't even think I believe it turns out ok for everyone. A lot of my single guy friends who are on the unattractive side of the spectrum seem to give up after a certain point and totally let themselves go. It's sad.

Ugly men - what is it like for you? Life, dating, relationships, public encounters...

2248 comments submitted at 01:29:53 on Apr 30, 2014 by BunnyBits

  • [-]
  • DelCarbon
  • 279 Points
  • 01:47:48, 30 April

I wasn't always considered unattractive, so I know what it's like on both sides (which I think makes it even worse). I developed a thyroid condition a few years ago which left me balding and skinny. I went from having tons of female friends and potential love interests to zero within the span of about 6 months. The girl I was seeing at the time broke things off with me because 'she no longer found me attractive' after a certain point (her words, and I understood it).

Being an ugly man sucks. Period. Not only is it taxing on the ego, but it's also difficult on a socioeconomic level. In fact, there are a few studies that have been done suggesting that unattractive men have lower success rates financially - partly in that they have to go it alone throughout their lives without any help, and also, employers tend to hire the more attractive of two candidates. Overall, unattractive men will have less opportunities and will be prone to more labor inequality than their handsome counterparts. So there are many detriments that come with having been beat with the ugly stick.

As far as what life is like...

Well, imagine never getting a smile in return after you've smiled at someone. Imagine that every woman who isn't old enough to be your mother looks at you disgustingly, or not at all. Imagine taking off your hat and hearing a girl say 'eww' (yes, this happened to me). Imagine being called a creeper behind your back when all you've ever done is say hi to someone. You feel that every encounter you have, even just paying the cashier for your groceries, is met with contempt. I mean... you can just sense that negative energy off of someone who feels threatened and/or disgusted just by your very presence.

  • [-]
  • codes_and_keys
  • 17 Points
  • 13:54:31, 30 April

if you don't mind me asking, what Thyroid condition causes this?

  • [-]
  • DelCarbon
  • 15 Points
  • 14:45:26, 30 April

It was actually never positively determined, but it was aggressively overactive and the onset of the symptoms came quickly and harshly. It was assumed to be Graves Disease. I was treated with Iodine and it got better over several months. My hair never grew back, unfortunately.

  • [-]
  • danimalxX
  • 30 Points
  • 15:12:08, 30 April

Bald can be sexy. :D

  • [-]
  • pspook
  • 190 Points
  • 13:38:10, 30 April

Life is a drag. A constant cycle of re-affirmation of your lowly and pathetic status. You try to fit in only to get pushed out again. You try to experience life like a normal person, only to realise that society doesn't want you to. You try to rationalise things - "maybe I have another purpose in life", "maybe this is evolution, survival of the fittest" - which only makes you feel worse.

You hate, hate society. How pathetically shallow and superficial it all is. How the media tells people what to think, and they think it. Confident/loud/attractive people annoy you immensely because they have everything and you have nothing. You feel like you must suffer the consequences of not being like them, of being looked down upon by them. Pitied by them. Unlike normal people, you cannot overlook the preposterous social/professional advantages of being attractive. As someone who is the exact opposite, it eats away at you.

You harbour almost uncontrollable levels of anger and resentment. Mostly you keep it simmering under the surface but sometimes its boils to the surface.

You are fed up of people telling you have control over your life when you know that you do not. You HATE when people tell you to try 'putting yourself out there' when you know that human interaction is a two-way street and doesn't rely solely on one's own efforts.

Despite this you try things - you really do try. You go to the gym, you shape up. You scrub up, you wear nice clothes. You experiment with new hobbies and interests. You sign up to speed dating courses. You try as many dating websites as you know of in a desperate attempt to find someone - anyone - who will like you for what you are. You are unanimously ignored. Nothing works. Nothing ever works.

You don't want to be alive. You aren't necessarily considering suicide, but you have to reason to live. No one wants you in any meaningful way.

You wonder how much longer you can keep doing this.

Background: I'm 34, have a total of three friends (none of whom I'm close to, certainly none I would talk to about these things) and have never been in a relationship. I am a virgin. I've been to over thirty therapy sessions and experimented with cocktails of anti-depressants and anti-anxiety drugs. In desperation I even tried hypnosis. Nothing makes me feel better about society's rejection. It completely defines me.

  • [-]
  • AbortusLuciferum
  • 35 Points
  • 15:59:39, 30 April

Shit, man.

  • [-]
  • kwsaxman
  • 7 Points
  • 16:20:58, 30 April

I have an honest question. does the situation that you described apply to all unattractive males? Are there any people as unattractive as you who have found some way to make it work?

  • [-]
  • InfinitelyThirsting
  • 11 Points
  • 16:36:51, 30 April

It's not everybody. I have happy, unattractive friends with active social lives. It's probably more difficult than when you're attractive, sure, but you don't have to be miserable and hate everything and everyone.

  • [-]
  • kwsaxman
  • 16 Points
  • 16:54:11, 30 April

Thats what i was wondering. Im an attractive guy and ive experienced periods of time where i have no friends and am really depressed but it was because of my attitude not my looks. Im wondering if there is a little more going on here than just being ugly.

  • [-]
  • _grump
  • 5 Points
  • 16:06:34, 30 April

im sorry.

  • [-]
  • Sectoid_Dev
  • 151 Points
  • 02:08:32, 30 April

I had almost zero social experience with girls in high school and only slightly more with college women. Graduated a kiss-less virgin. No woman I was ever interested in was ever interested back. The couple of female friends I had were always just friends or it crashed and burned before it even started. I always attributed my isolation to my weight. But looking back now from middle age, I see it was because I was a tightly wound, angry and selfish person who was very content to ignore the world and everyone in it unless I wanted something. Yeah the weight was an issue for some, but the rest was that I was an asshole.

I think I'm doing better now.

  • [-]
  • Rollondger
  • 22 Points
  • 12:13:18, 30 April

Hear hear!

That has been my revelation. My new life mantra is "don't be an asshole". It's really hard to turn off the cynicism some days...

  • [-]
  • Congotron
  • 58 Points
  • 14:26:19, 30 April

> No woman I was ever interested in was ever interested back.

Not saying you were this way, but I've noticed with my overweight friends that their standards in women were unreasonably high. One friend in particular complains that no women are interested in him and then ignores the advances of average looking girls. I just don't get it. It seems hypocritical.

  • [-]
  • butt-candle
  • 43 Points
  • 15:55:00, 30 April

I knew a guy like that. 300 pound Brony who lived on Mountain Dew and whined about being "friendzoned" constantly. Our mutual friend had a crush on him (they both loved the same anime) but he rejected her. She was actually really pretty, but she didn't look like an anime character so he wasn't interested.

  • [-]
  • Yoroyo
  • 11 Points
  • 16:16:31, 30 April

I find that's usually the case.

  • [-]
  • kingkongfoo
  • 20 Points
  • 11:20:07, 30 April

I think the worst part is that girls will use you to boost their own confidence and then kind of ignore you because 'you got the wrong idea'. It's brutal and it does get to you after a while. If almost every woman you try to talk to (and get intimate with) treats you like this, then it fucks with you.

Emotional vampires are a fact of ugly-life.

Full disclosure: I am fat and not ugly. So as I lose weight I feel the difference in the way people treat me... And honestly I find it depressing, not motivating. I still put in the work and lose the weight, but I found that many people think of and advertise themselves as something they're really not. We all want to be good to others and accepting of all kinds of people, but there are hidden 'classes' based on looks. Poorly hidden classes I should say and most of us (either gender) perpetuate them blindly.

It is what it is and I don't want pity, I just wanted to throw in my 2 cents. I'll be fine :) My bullshit detector is pretty good and I know what I am looking for, so I'll get there.

  • [-]
  • throwaway523146
  • 57 Points
  • 02:39:14, 30 April

Not great.

I'm weird looking. I've been weird looking for my entire life. School was difficult because of this, making friends was difficult because of this. I was teased and ignored often but I tried to maintain a healthy attitude. I managed better than most, I think, but my personality and state of mind suffered. Looking back on my life I can watch myself slowly turn from a normal, outgoing kid into an uncomfortable, withdrawn, and defensive kid.

The worst thing about it though is it affected my formative years. Appearance is like a bell curve and below a certain level people treat you differently. When the majority of the regular kids reject you because you're an easy target, you're basically forced to hang out with the other weird kids. I've had a lot of friends with social problems, I suspect autism in some cases, weird kids are weird for a reason. And so I sort of learned how to socialize through them, which was not good. I developed a lot of bad habits that I carried with me into other social interactions.

I'm in my mid 20s now. Virgin, no girlfriends, ever, very few friends, even fewer dates, I can't remember the last time I went on one. I don't blame it all on appearance, but obviously that's a root cause of my contributing state of mind. When I was younger I was so defensive that when a few girls did show interest I was skeptical and would often push them away to avoid getting hurt. Or I was totally oblivious because I was so used to just existing without that kind of thing in my life. Every girl I've ever asked out has said no. And every rejection just sort of multiplies the score.

Long story short its had a snowball effect on my whole personality. I'm well past dwelling on my appearance, I just focus on my state of mind and social skills now. The good thing about it is it stopped mattering sometime around high school, but unfucking 17 years of bad experiences is difficult. I've made a lot of progress though.

  • [-]
  • HalfysReddit
  • 66 Points
  • 04:08:35, 30 April

I grew up fat and socially awkward. I then decided to get in shape, and have over the past four years been skinny, flabby, built, and even near body-builder status.

People are way more shallow than they want to admit. The difference in how people treated me was absurd. I went from being happy to actually get a response from half the women I said "hello" to, to just knowing that all of the women I was interacting with found me attractive. I went from being a fly on the wall to being in the spotlight. I used to have to earn any amount of attention I received, and now I can't help but draw attention to myself.

Honestly for guys I don't think there is anything you could possibly put effort into in order to improve your quality of life other than hitting the gym.

  • [-]
  • paintchipsandetergen
  • 17 Points
  • 06:14:26, 30 April

Horrible.

I don't think people realize how grateful they should be for not being lightspeed ugly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aUgQPzq6ifc

  • [-]
  • stripmallbars
  • 33 Points
  • 13:33:29, 30 April

I was really pretty my whole life. I'm female, but I sympathize. Now I'm about to be 51. Now I'm invisible. Middle aged white woman. I could rob a bank and they wouldn't notice me. But I had that positive attention. I turned heads all the time. I only dated one guy for his looks and he was kinda cruel and cared more about his sexy undies than mine. I was young and beautiful and I didn't care if a guy was fat or had zits or whatever. I like funny and smart. Not all women are bitches. But my point is that, with rare exceptions, you pretty people that snub others will know how it feels. Some young pretty girl is going to make fun of your old ass, if you live to be old enough to get ugly. I promise you. But if you're not so "all that" it all evens out in your 40s and 50s. Now all that matters in my age group is extreme fitness. It's the only way to be "hot". I have better things to think about than my butt, thank you very much. So much about looks is advertising. If it didn't matter what we looked like, we wouldn't buy all that stupid B B cream and haircolor and rogaine and slimfist and tight lycra underwear. But chikinpickle, why be bitter? The past is over, dude. Enjoy your 8-ness before you get old. Old is less sexy than anything.

edit: Reddit thinks I'm insulting someone. It's me, I guess?

  • [-]
  • Steakin
  • 12 Points
  • 15:47:24, 30 April

Well, hearing a fifty year old woman say dude makes me happy, regardless.

  • [-]
  • christmascookies
  • 28 Points
  • 04:50:45, 30 April

The worst part is when you look in the mirror and are unhappy with what you see.

  • [-]
  • DelCarbon
  • 19 Points
  • 05:18:04, 30 April

Heh. I can hardly even look into a mirror. I only do it when I have to shave or something. Otherwise, it will seriously destroy my entire day if I happen to catch my reflection inadvertently - even from a window as I walk by.

  • [-]
  • ABKC
  • 14 Points
  • 06:16:28, 30 April

I usually don't make eye contact with myself.

  • [-]
  • redshrek
  • 82 Points
  • 03:26:08, 30 April

Man, life is great. I have gotten stronger as I have gotten older. Shit, I hit a 625 lb deadlift just yesterday. I don't date much. I am pretty much invisible to women which is not that bad if getting a chick is not your main goal. I work a great job and I get paid a good amount of cash to do my job. I own my own car and I live in a nice apartment. I get to travel a lot on my own and do a lot of shit by myself for myself. Essentially, life for me is pretty normal. I am a not particularly good looking black dude living in Seattle, which is predominately white and asian. I don't trip about the lack of female attention to be honest at least not anymore. When I was in my mid to late 20s living in DC, it did. I think once I hit 29, something flipped in my brain and I really stopped giving a shit. I will be 31 in a couple of months and I give even less of a shit than I did at 29. I am happy, I am blessed. Of course, life could be better but I am happy with where I am and I look forward to continuing my journey with or without attention from women.

  • [-]
  • mega_shit
  • 29 Points
  • 05:52:21, 30 April

I can only deadlift 500 lbs, but when I move back to Seattle maybe we can rip weights off the ground together.

  • [-]
  • redshrek
  • 8 Points
  • 13:16:55, 30 April

Sure thing. To be specific, I am in Bellevue.

  • [-]
  • Venne1138
  • 17 Points
  • 07:17:52, 30 April

I'm not currently suicidal. And by 'currenty' I mean this moment.

No idea if I will be by the time I finish typing this.

I deal with this every day for approximately 24 hours a day.

Every time I dream I dream of me dying in some way while someone taunts me (IE: your fucking ugly kill yourself) and then shooting me in the head.

Overall I would put being ugly at a

BrettyGood/10 .

  • [-]
  • trail22
  • 25 Points
  • 05:15:30, 30 April

You understand that no women will meet you and immediatly be attracted to you. Sure you can win a women with your personality; but there is no love at first sight.

  • [-]
  • instagigated
  • 7 Points
  • 10:47:06, 30 April

"You're a good guy, but let's be friends."

  • [-]
  • chikinpickle
  • 2268 Points
  • 03:15:49, 30 April

I was obese growing up, now lost the weight.

I went from being a 1 on the scale of attractiveness to around a 7-8 according to women I have talked to.

The difference in how you are treated not only by women but by men is jaw dropping.

I want you to imagine what it would be like if one day you walked out of your front door and you were completely invisible. Nobody looked at you, nobody acknowledged your presence. You may talk to a waitress or a cashier throughout the course of your day. Maybe you try and make small talk. But you never really get past the corporate script those people play on a loop all day.

When you try and make eye contact with people, especially women they look away. Forget about trying to make conversation with them. You've been there a hundred times before. When you think about it, you remember all the times in middle school, maybe freshman year of high school where sally told you that Julie liked you. The first couple times you went for that trick. But you got wise pretty quick, especially when you saw the way the girls treated the popular boys.

Even then, they still tried to convince you of it. Even when you told them you knew they were lying to you. When you knew it wasn't true.

If you were lucky you were just ugly and people ignored you. If you weren't so lucky, and you were scrawny, small, or fat you got bullied. Every day. Until you learned to keep to yourself. Don't talk to people, it only invites trouble into your life.

You were the creep, of course we were all awkward teens for the most part. But nobody really let it slide for you. You got the label. Once you get the label, you can kiss your social life (if you were lucky enough to have one) completely goodbye.

As an adult man nobody really cares all that much about you. Your family of course, your close friends. You are the disposable sex. You fight the wars, work the shit jobs, sacrifice your body because it's what men have always done. It's the burden we bear.

As an unattractive adult man, you are completely invisible. If a guy better looking than you walks into the room, all the attention is immediately on him. It's like you just disappeared on the spot. Nobody cares about you at all, least of all women.

Eventually the lack of human contact starts to get you weird. You see the ugly truth of the human condition. That ugly truth is we are not all equal and never will be. There are losers in this world and you are one of them. Your self esteem drops, which makes it even worse. The only thing worse than an ugly dude is an ugly dude with low self esteem.

So you drop out, because you know it doesn't even matter how hard you try. It will never be good enough, and the few stray women who might come your way are just as undesirable as you are. So you withdraw, find satisfaction somewhere else. Porn, vidya, pot, booze, pick a vice. Or maybe you just suffer in silence. But make no mistake you are suffering.

Maybe you go to the movies alone on a Friday night and drown your sorrows in a large popcorn, extra butter, and a 44oz coke. I worked for three years at a theater. One of the memories I have from that job which I think will stay with me was a customer that I served at the concession stand. About a 350 pound guy if I had to guess. Late teen/early 20's came in alone. Large popcorn, large drink and went on his way. But the look in his eyes I will never forget. The sadness and pain in there. I knew why too. I knew exactly what that felt like, having weighed over 300 lbs.

Fortunately for me the source of my unattractiveness was something which I had control over. But seeing things from the other side of the coin... you wanna talk bitterness? Holy shit there is no bitterness like the bitterness of an unattractive awkward dude ala /r/foreveralone except perhaps the bitterness of a good looking former fat guy.

here is a great article which describes what life is like for really ugly dudes. Or men who are involuntarily celibate. Don't mind the redpill buzzwords, read into it and put yourself into his shoes. The anger this guy has is tangible in his words.

On top of all this, you can't even talk to anybody about it. Because nobody cares about how men feel about things. Certainly not other men, and women have no respect for a soft guy. Not unless he can turn it off and be a dick at will.

As a woman, I don't think you could possibly understand the experience. Not unless you actually got to know one such guy. Which I doubt you would, as even really ugly women have shoulders to cry on. No judgement, the ugly truth is what it is.

Feel free to inquire further I would be happy to share my experiences with you. Now if you will excuse me OP, I have a term project to finish.

EDIT: Wow this blew up. I chewed through all the comments and would like to add a few things to this post.

First off, to all you unattractive women out there. Thank you for sharing your experiences. It's been eye opening. It seems my perception of your lives is a little off. I sounds like the experience may not be as different as it seems I thought it would be. Keep your chins up. I apologize for my ignorance.

To those of you offering me advice, thanks. But I have already done what I needed to do. I'm quite happy with my life at the moment. I have hobbies, good friends, and a family that while not perfect is pretty good in my book. Life is good :)

To those of you upset to the article I linked, one of the comments summed up better than I what I linked it to illustrate. I didn't link it because I agree with it. I linked to to illustrate what being unattractive and not validated as a sexual being does to a person. How it affects their worldview. An example of the results if you will. Take what you will from it.

To those of you complaining about me having a pity party, c'est la vie. If you didn't want to hear it you probably shouldn't have read a post about what life is like for unattractive men.

To those of you who can relate, it's been interesting reading about your experiences. Know that you aren't alone in the world.

To those of you who took my words literally, that was not the purpose of this piece of writing. What I intended was for it to be read from the perspective of the internal monologue of an unattractive man. Many of the things which I wrote here are views which I held at the time I was experiencing these things. Many of these views I have move past. Or are just nagging thoughts which I dismiss most days. I'm trying to put you: the reader, into the mind of a fat, socially awkward kid in high school. Not describe my life as it stands today. Please keep that in mind as you read this.

To those of you who say that me just being fat wasn't the reason I was unattractive I will not disagree. I was socially awkward and had piss poor self esteem. That contributed to my unattractiveness at that time.

To those of you accusing me of being hypocritical with the part about not dating ugly women being ugly. Sure. You got me, that's the point I was trying to make.

Finally to those of you who asked what my life is like now. I'll give you the overview. I'm in my 5th year of college finishing up me engineering degree. I nailed a project presentation on Monday. I joined a club at my university where I have developed socially beyond what I thought was possible. I'm still a bit awkward, but I am always improving. I did develop a sense of humor and can be pretty funny if the mood strikes me.

I weigh around 200 pounds now, I cycle around 50-100 miles a week. I was rock climbing for a while and will start again as soon as the semester is over. Along with all sorts of other outdoor activities. I lead a pretty active lifestyle. Overall I would say that I am very happy with my life as it stands now. A bit lonely, but I don't derive my self worth from being in a relationship. It comes from my accomplishments.

To all you SRSers out there, I offer you a two fingered salute and a lopsided grin. Y'all have fun with this one.

  • [-]
  • vanessaroma
  • 1932 Points
  • 05:53:26, 30 April

I'm a female and the part where you say that men can't really talk about it really hit me cause I tried talking about my situation with a friend and she literally looked at me like I was crazy.

I was explaining to her than I never get hit on by anyone. Ever. Not even a cat call. I get no male attention whatsoever. And my friend asked questions and treated me like I was some desperate, horny, crazy girl. That I was LOOKING to be harassed by men. Which is not the case at all. My friends are beautiful girls who sit around talking about their boy problems and I'm literally sitting there on my cellphone playing flappy bird cause I have nothing to add to these conversations. It fucking sucks. Then I talk about how I would like a boyfriend or how I would like "male attention" and I'm suddenly so "sad and desperate"

So I'm left with no one to talk to about how I really feel. I have no shoulder to cry on.

Then being ignored. God, I could fucking cry as I type this. It's not necessarily people literally ignoring me. But I'm the one people go to TO MEET the other girl. I'm the girl who shares advice. I can't tell you how many times I've told my crush how to pick up another girl. I don't get drinks bought for me. No ones asks for my name, they ask me for my friend's name. At parties, everyone is so flirtatious with one another and no one throws me any flirtatious jokes if that makes sense. Guys are always standing closer to the other girls, talking to the other girls, and I'm just there.

Social media has made it worst. Those stupid Woman Crush Wednesdays. MySpace days!? Top 8s. I'm no one's crush. And I was never in a Top 8. Middle school, good god. "Matt likes you!" When in reality he didn't.

There are days where I just accept it and just deal with it, and there are WEEKS where I am crying my eyes out and asking God WHY!?

You begin to feel worthless, pathetic and ugly. I tried everything I can. EVERYTHING. And I'm still ignored with no one to talk to. I'm on the bottom of this world's social ladder. And I don't want to be.

  • [-]
  • my_baby_ate_dingos
  • 128 Points
  • 11:32:54, 30 April

> "Matt likes you!" When in reality he didn't

What IS it with middle schoolers and this particular bit of nastiness? I mean, at the basic, middle-school level, this is probably the most hurtful thing you can do for someone's self-esteem...

I was in middle-school when Hotmail and MSN messenger got popular as the go-to communications method between kids, and the resident techie (who hated my guts) obtained my crush's Hotmail password and sent me a declaration of love from her account. He did it really well too, it could have passed for the real thing.

Joke was on him though - My self-esteem was already so low I never believed it was anything but a prank or a mistake. So it worked out... okay, I guess?

  • [-]
  • avayla
  • 59 Points
  • 12:27:35, 30 April

>Joke was on him though - My self-esteem was already so low I never believed it was anything but a prank or a mistake. So it worked out... okay, I guess?

Exactly how I felt. My prankster was persistent. It happened to me three times, same guy. I still actually wonder if he did like me, but was too popular to be seen with me. Of course, two years ago, I photographed his sisters wedding (had no clue he was related to the bride until I got to the wedding) and I spent the whole day back in Jr high. His wife was one of the popular girls from high school. I'm happily married. And yet I still wondered, all night. I hate that horrible insecure feeling. I thought I was rid of it, but it came back full force out of nowhere. Shit sucks.

  • [-]
  • Charliezard
  • 846 Points
  • 06:51:52, 30 April

The attitude of your friends reminds me of a quote that I will probably butcher and can't remember who to attribute it to, "There is only one thing worse than being treated as a sex object and that's not being treated as a sex object."

  • [-]
  • Franholio
  • 780 Points
  • 12:55:29, 30 April

"The only thing worse than being talked about is not being talked about." - Oscar Wilde

  • [-]
  • Hellknightx
  • 104 Points
  • 14:43:26, 30 April

Well that explains a lot about him.

  • [-]
  • elcheecho
  • 16 Points
  • 15:28:36, 30 April

oh yeah? how so?

  • [-]
  • dtdroid
  • 78 Points
  • 16:23:48, 30 April

Because he lived his life always the center of the media of his day. Wilde was a celebrity before the age of the modern celebrity.

  • [-]
  • Hellknightx
  • 40 Points
  • 16:27:42, 30 April

Oscar Wilde had an excessive lifestyle, often indulging in unorthodox activities and scandalous affairs. He always wore flamboyant attire, like the Lady Gaga of his time. He ended up having a romantic affair with a duke or count's (I don't remember. Some influential nobleman's) son, and was exiled from England, forever ruining his career.

Some of this is probably wrong, and it's been several years since I learned anything about him. He had a very interesting life.

  • [-]
  • ACriticalGeek
  • 7 Points
  • 16:53:33, 30 April

He's the man who made the West associate effeminate behavior with being homosexual.

  • [-]
  • dakommy
  • 224 Points
  • 09:22:51, 30 April

Yeah I'm not super familiar with that quote but I just ran a bit of a logic exercise in my mind to work out the reasoning there.

If you're a person who is treated regularly like a sex object, you may wish that people would stop treating you as one.

But what you'd want there is for people to stop treating you as the sex object in spite of the fact that you clearly are one.

What nobody wants... isn't to be not treated like a sex object, it's to be treated like they're not a sex object.

And I'm spent.

  • [-]
  • admiral_rabbit
  • 64 Points
  • 12:59:30, 30 April

That final sentence had a confusing amount of... like, triple negatives, but was otherwise an exceptional insight.

I'll remember that.

  • [-]
  • Lumber-Jacked
  • 56 Points
  • 14:30:26, 30 April

I don't particularly enjoy the show How I Met Your Mother but there was an episode that kind of touched on this. They group all went to a gay bar. The guys became super excited that they were actually being hit on. It was a new feeling for them to be able to say "sorry not interested" and all that. The girls were super happy to finally not be hit on. It was relieving to be ignored while in a room full of men for once.

By the end of the night, both the men and women were so sick of it that they left.

  • [-]
  • Camille_Lionne
  • 44 Points
  • 15:39:44, 30 April

I'm a mostly hetrosexual woman who hangs out at gay bars almost exclusively. I'm pretty ugly, but i'm not fat, so I get ignored all night (with the exception of slightly shy men asking me for info about my attractive friends) then at the end of the night at any straight bar, the dregs of the universe try to pick me up, thinking I'm desperate. They say some pretty nasty stuff, "hey, baby, i bet you're tired of sleeping alone, heh heh heh. Want sum dick?" things like that.

at least at the gay bar, I get friendly platonic attention. "Oh, honey! I love your shoes!"

  • [-]
  • That_Unknown_Guy
  • 86 Points
  • 11:56:22, 30 April

Yup. The thing people ignore is that beautiful people are sex objects. Now of course I don't mean they aren't also people, but they are sexy people. They are people you think about sexually as well as mentally. With ugly people that whole sex part doesn't exist. There is a gender imbalance though as guys in general find more women to be hot than women find men to be hot. Essentially women in general are more picky (according to a okcupid analysis i don't remember the link for)

  • [-]
  • skysinsane
  • 5 Points
  • 14:42:01, 30 April

"There is only one thing in the world worse than being talked about, and that is not being talked about."

-Oscar Wilde

  • [-]
  • super_heterosexual
  • 34 Points
  • 14:41:44, 30 April

No one wants to be a sex object, but everyone wants to be attractive. The two aren't the same thing. Being told that you are attractive or sexually desirable is a wonderful thing to experience; it boosts your confidence, makes you feel good about yourself.

Being a sex object is so much different. It means you're literally an object, and the other person no longer views you as a human being with their own thoughts, desires, or feelings. Men say all the time, "Women complain about being sex objects, but they don't understand. I would want nothing more than to be a sex object." No you don't. You want to be attractive, like every other human does. You don't want to be the thing someone uses and then discards when they've finished with you. Men can be sexually objectified by women, I have been, and it makes you feel utterly worthless as a person.

Men rarely get physical compliments, that's true, and that's not something that women understand, but it's a huge mistake to treat sexual objectification like something good when it's awful and dehumanizing to people of both sexes.

  • [-]
  • perrythebari
  • 81 Points
  • 07:05:57, 30 April

I understand where you're coming from. For some reason, I seem to be the guy everyone loves to have around when there's a group, but when it comes to one on one conversation, nobody, not even my best friends, most of the time, wants to talk to me.

Edit: And I try to talk to people about it, and they think I'm crazy because, "No, perrythebari, everyone loves having you around." But then I'll go to a party (not a house party or anything, I don't get invited to those, one of those church parties where they have to invite everyone) and end up sitting in a corner because no one's interested in having a simple conversation.

  • [-]
  • meno123
  • 86 Points
  • 12:01:09, 30 April

Dude, you have to stop talking about me like it's your life. You're getting it way too correct.

I recently told someone that my anxiety causes me to think that everyone hates me whenever it comes to seeing them, even if it's for no reason. "Everyone there is your friend and they love having you around."

Bullshit. That's why I have yet to be invited to Thursday night volleyball or to hang out on Saturday nights. I get invited to the events where everyone is invited, and I'm often even missed in those. I find out they exist because I see my entire circle of friends in photos from the events on Facebook and I'm the only one not there. Hell, that's the only reason I even know about Thursdays and Saturdays. I've been 'friends' with you people for three fucking years. Start acting like I'm worth more than a used paper towel.

  • [-]
  • Testiculese
  • 59 Points
  • 14:00:52, 30 April

> I find out they exist because I see my entire circle of friends in photos from the events on Facebook and I'm the only one not there.

This has been a problem for me the last few years. Someone having a firepit outside? I don't know about it until days later someone posts it on FB. Everyone heading up to the cabin to go quadding/offroading? I find out Monday. It got to the point where I was trying to find them talking about something and invite myself. But that doesn't sit well with me, so I stopped. Decided to try something, and stopped talking to all of them. No calls, I didn't update FB (which I don't really do anyway). Unsurprisingly, not a single person noticed for over three months. So I deleted them all from FB and my phone, and haven't seen or heard from any of them in about two years now.

  • [-]
  • MacDagger187
  • 22 Points
  • 15:06:36, 30 April

Good for you, those people weren't real friends. And they're not even necessarily bad people, but everyone is different, and it's clear you need friends with different personalities than those guys.

  • [-]
  • JBHedgehog
  • 6 Points
  • 15:35:31, 30 April

Which is why you are now a better person.

Well done!

  • [-]
  • kikimonster
  • 32 Points
  • 12:25:18, 30 April

Do you invite them to stuff?

  • [-]
  • meno123
  • 84 Points
  • 12:38:20, 30 April

I've planned quite a few events for activities that are commonly a hit among us. No interest, no declines, no "maybe if it were a different day", nothing. There was one person I used to text throughout the day, and every single time without fail they would stop replying whenever I suggested hanging out and not say anything else until I changed the subject. I'm literally invisible unless I'm needed. I've been part of conversations where they're talking about something happening later that week and one person directly asks each person in the circle whether they're going or not, skipping me. These are not isolated incidents. This is my life.

Even my family forgets about me, and they actually do care. I was never invited to my sister's wedding, but was brought along because I should go anyway. I was also conveniently forgotten when it came time for the wedding photos. I am the only relative of either the bride or groom that is not in a single one of their wedding photos, including the big one with the entirety of both families.

I've all but stopped trying at this point. None of my efforts have ever born even the slightest fruits and I honestly I wish I had to lie to make it sound as bad as it does.

  • [-]
  • kikimonster
  • 32 Points
  • 12:46:25, 30 April

Wow, that sounds pretty bad, makes me appreciate and miss my friends that I moved away from. I honestly have no perspective.

My only suggestion for you is to just pursue a passion that gets you to meeting new people. I miss my friends but part of the reason I moved across the country was to pursue my passion for my mandolin and Bluegrass music. I've met a lot of people in the 6 months I've been here and maybe even a couple people I would call friends.

Maybe you shouldn't do events but just activities at first. Like "let's go watch a basketball game at a bar," however my advice may not be useful, I'm reserved but pretty social.

  • [-]
  • Analog265
  • 20 Points
  • 13:57:12, 30 April

I don't have it nearly as bad as you (i feel for you though), but stuff like this is pretty much why i try to never start things, even on my birthday.

I'd rather not bother and keep my dignity, rather than throw a party that barely anyone comes to and makes me kind of look like a loser.

  • [-]
  • tresdosuno
  • 14 Points
  • 15:01:24, 30 April

>None of my efforts have born even the slightest fruits and I honestly wish I had to lie to make it sound as bad as it does.

Feelcity.jpg

All through college I've tried to make friends and establish a social circle. All I have is a handful of numbers I sometimes hit up to see if they want to go out and do something. I've maybe been invited to something small 4-5 times in 4 years. I even lost like 60 pounds and became attractive. This was inspired in part by my lack of anything else going on in my life and the crushing loneliness of staying home, again, was getting to be too much.

Man, when you see those FB posts of parties you weren't invited to but your whole dorm floor is there? Powerful shit.

I'm just fucking moving across the country for grad school, fresh start, new faces, and hopefully with my experiences here I can make new relationships for the better.

God the non-texts are the fucking worsts, though. I know you fucking got my text I see you on your phone all the fucking time, is it that hard to just take 10 seconds to reply at some point?

  • [-]
  • RevengeOfTechGirl
  • 33 Points
  • 13:23:01, 30 April

Jesus flippin Christ! Internet hug, man. Not much, but it's all I've got.

  • [-]
  • Arizhel
  • 10 Points
  • 14:43:53, 30 April

I wonder how many guys are like you, generally ignored, until someone needs their skills for something. For instance, maybe they're good at repairing computers, or general handyman stuff (fixing plumbing, etc.). So when people need their car fixed or their plumbing has a leak, they think "meno123 can do it, and it'll be free!!!". But when they don't need anything from you, they never think of you.

  • [-]
  • Aiglentine
  • 12 Points
  • 14:01:19, 30 April

Geez, man. I'm so sorry. I want to tell you and all the other "unattractive" guys on here that those aren't real friends, and that they are really jerks. And that there are good people out there who don't care how you look. But after reading so many stories like this, I fear that I am wrong. Maybe there aren't. Lots of hugs for you.. If internet hugs and friends help, then you've got it from me. I hope you run into some better people. People who want people around for their personalities, not their looks. I hope there are some people like that near you.

  • [-]
  • R3cognizer
  • 5 Points
  • 15:21:18, 30 April

Something people ought to understand better is that some people (extroverts) like having lots and lots of acquaintances and tend to have a huge following of people they hang out with, but may not be particularly close to anybody in particular, and other people (introverts) like having an extremely small circle of very close friends they are comfortable hanging out with on a regular basis and they simply aren't interested in making that circle any bigger. Most people are somewhere in between, and everyone varies obviously as people come and go through their lives, but everyone seems to have a magic number of friends that works for them, and they usually don't like changing that number.

Your friends like you just fine. They are just more comfortable with you being more of an acquaintance than a "close" friend, and they obviously aren't interested in being closer. It's really easy to question yourself and wonder if you're doing something wrong, but I can tell you that I'm 95% sure the only thing you're doing wrong here is stubbornly holding on to the expectation and hope that something might change one day.

This isn't something you have any control over. If they don't want any more "close" friends, then it's just never going to happen and there's nothing you can do to change that. There are some things you have control over, like your hygiene, the classiness of your presentation/clothing, your willingness to make the first move, and embracing a positive attitude, but if they aren't receptive to changing their relationship with you, then your efforts are completely wasted by continuing to hold out hope that your relationship with any of them is ever going to change.

Again, let me reiterate that it's not your fault. People are just like that sometimes, and yes, exclusive cliques like that are frustrating as fuck, especially when you feel like you really get along well with someone and they just aren't interested. It's like some people just never leave high school sometimes. But like romantic relationships, friendships are also two-way streets and require reciprocation to grow and flourish. If your friends aren't willing to reciprocate, you're just going to have to start looking elsewhere for some different friends who are more willing. Meeting new people is tough sometimes, but trust me, you won't regret it. And you can still hang out with your old group once in a while as you have been.

  • [-]
  • shapu
  • 31 Points
  • 13:52:03, 30 April

You've never been there, I assume, so I'll give you points for asking.

When ugly or unpopular (usually the same) men invite people over for things, the decline rate approaches 100%. Eventually you learn to stop asking.

The same is true of people who are depressed. Other people sense desperation, and even if they consciously know that the best way to be the friends they claim to be is to go, and be there, they find a reason not to. I'm sure there's a psychological imperative at play here.

  • [-]
  • Alaendil
  • 19 Points
  • 14:39:05, 30 April

Heh ... I tried to have birthday parties a few years in a row. Invited all of my friends, spent a ton of money on decorations, booze and everything ... 1 person showed up ... my roommate.

It's been like 7 years since I've even bothered. There are 2 friends of mine now that have birthdays within a week of mine and I sometimes just pretend that some of the people that go to them are somehow celebrating my birthday too.

  • [-]
  • Samokoske
  • 4 Points
  • 14:55:45, 30 April

Preselection. Success begets success.

  • [-]
  • discoshea
  • 25 Points
  • 14:10:28, 30 April

I'm going to be completely honest and say there's someone like you in our friend group who tends to get the cold shoulder. And I've always felt guilty about it and do my best to include them but I could do more. I'm glad I got to hear your side because I've always wondered if this friend was hurt by what was going on or oblivious to it. Thinking he wasn't aware was obviously just wishful thing. Going to start doing more to make him feel appreciated.

  • [-]
  • Ninjorman
  • 22 Points
  • 12:45:25, 30 April

I'm right there with you. When I see my friends at work or at school I always hear, "I miss you! Why don't we ever hang out?"

Maybe because you never invite me anywhere? And the next day there will be Facebook pics and posts about another epic party they had.

  • [-]
  • notsoyoungpadawan
  • 497 Points
  • 09:12:39, 30 April

As a guy, let me assure you that its not the end of the road. You might think you're unattractive, and you might be, but you can improve on it. Get a strict diet and go to the gym. I'm serious. A girl with an average/below average face but with a fit body is a thousand times more attractive than an average face with an average body. I know countless guys who have dated average looking girls with athletic bodies. You don't have to be ripped as fuck, but if you look proportional with curves in the right places then yeah, you're going to get a lot of attention.

Take it from a guy that used to be scrawny as fuck. I now workout and eat well and I think I am in a decent enough shape because the amount of eye contact women make with me and end up approaching me now instead of the other way round is ten fold more than what it used to be. And guys are a lot more shallow than women, so it'll be even better for you. But you really have to stick with it and be sincere to yourself. I can't tell you how well it works. Don't give up. Constantly look to improve yourself. Its the only way for us average folk to survive amongst those with the beautiful genes.

  • [-]
  • vanessaroma
  • 443 Points
  • 11:24:36, 30 April

You are LITERALLY the first to EVER give some sort of realistic advice. Everyone else does that "you need to love yourself" bullshit and it's so Disney.

You my friend are greatly appreciated.

  • [-]
  • HatrackJack
  • 94 Points
  • 13:25:03, 30 April

As someone who used to be much less attractive and has improved, there were SO many things I had no idea would make a difference.

Like I got my eyebrows waxed, instead of just tidying them up sometimes with my tweezers. You wouldn't believe the difference it made to my face. I went to a place a friend goes to, and her eyebrows always look nice and they definitely don't wax too thin like I was worried would happen. I learnt how to do makeup properly (yay youtube videos!) and started buying better quality stuff and wearing it.

I identified a style I like and stopped buying clothes that I liked individually, and started buying clothes that worked cohesively so I could easily put together better, more flattering outfits. It's also important that your clothes fit properly and flatter your body type (google is a great teacher) but it's also super important, at least for me, that the clothes are comfy enough that I won't just reach for my trackpants every morning.

I got a good haircut for my face shape.

I started taking better care of my skin (shoutout to /r/skincareaddiction ).

The other obvious things are to make sure you smell nice. I sweat really badly so this is something I need to make sure I keep up with. And self esteem totally does matter because it will change how you carry yourself, how you smile, how you talk. Bad posture can be improved by strengthening the right muscles, it's a good thing to talk to a trainer or a gym friend about.

To learn about ANY of this stuff, or check any of it out and start off on the cheap, Google is totally your friend. I wish somebody had explained this kind of thing to me years ago. I hope this doesn't seem harsh, rattling all this off one after the other, but whether you're unattractive or not this is stuff that will help make you feel more attractive, and it's also stuff that doesn't require a huge amount of motivation or maintenance (excluding the gym). Mostly though it's just the things that have worked for me. I totally understand where you're coming from because I never used to get hit on, never used to feel attractive and never used to know what to do to improve myself. I thought I'd offer you my experience with it just in case these kinds of things are what you're looking for.

To end, if you can't do anything more in terms of physical stuff, work on your mind! Read, write, do puzzles, educate yourself on current affairs, learn how to cook, or do flower arranging or learn sign language. We all know at that party when someone goes "Oh my god, John, you can speak Portugese!? Show us! That's so cool!" Having interesting hobbies or skills or what have you can make you feel really good =) Also, be kind. I used to want to be all hard and give no fucks so nobody could hurt me, but I've found being my soft, marhsmallowy self is something people really like about me. Everybody likes their super kind friend. This doesn't mean being a pushover, but if you're like me you'll have craved over and over for people to just be kind to you. To be gentle and soft and warm. So now I like to be that person to other people.

TL,DR;

A list of things a woman who feels she is unattractive can do to improve her appearance, as well as the ever important aspect of mind!

  • [-]
  • vanessaroma
  • 30 Points
  • 13:37:43, 30 April

In so happy for your success story! I'm in that "make over" transition right now. COINCIDENTALLY, my eyebrows! lol

I google like a manic! I watch so many make up videos on YouTube and I have a bit of a shopping addiction so buying skin care products totally feeds that. Lol

I work at a clothing store, so in making more of an effort to out outfits together!

This self make over is literally what is keeping me from becoming a vegetable and I'm so glad that it's helped for you because I think it will help me too.

And! I LOVE THAT YOU SUGGESTED ways to better myself through my mind. Because in an ideal world, looks shouldn't be everything, but instead....intelligence and I love that! <333

  • [-]
  • omfgjanne
  • 5 Points
  • 16:53:10, 30 April

yes. i have plenty of beautiful female friends who put ZERO effort into their appearance and complain that they feel ugly. then i'll get a snap or text saying "wearing makeup today! feel great!" i'm like...do that every day...?

  • [-]
  • chest_hair_inspector
  • 154 Points
  • 11:45:58, 30 April

Men don't realize how lucky they are to have that whole improve-yourself movement everywhere dating advice comes up. Yeah, it's overexposed at this point and some of the "gurus" are douchebags and much of the tone is cringeworthy but the message is basically right, I think. The "love yourself" stuff women give each other is nice and all and comes from the right place and, hell, presumably it works for some but there's no process there you can work on and throw yourself into and nobody talking about tangible results at the other end.

I'm a woman who took advice similar to that the guy above gave you when I got divorced (I work in a male dominated industry so many of my "girlfriends" are actually men who gave me variations on the delete Facebook, hit the gym lines). Went from 155lb and a hard drinking workaholic who had not been in a gym for five years and was invisible to men, to 125lb and a competing powerlifter. I can confirm the results /u/notsoyoungpadawan talking about absolutely came - I get the looks in the gym mirrors and the younger dates and such he's talking about these days. And if they hadn't I would have been an improved person anyway.

  • [-]
  • saikron
  • 65 Points
  • 13:37:17, 30 April

"Love yourself and hit the fuckin' gym and library" is our motto. :)

  • [-]
  • dharmabird67
  • 70 Points
  • 15:03:04, 30 April

"and then hit on the (preferably plain and shy) librarian" - signed plain and shy librarian ;)

  • [-]
  • Lucadeus
  • 20 Points
  • 16:02:46, 30 April

Lady.... Talking to me about books is about the biggest turn on I have.

  • [-]
  • tgr316
  • 11 Points
  • 15:33:56, 30 April

There's no way for me to say this without being creepy. So here goes.

Shy, plain librarians are sexy as hell. I loved the one I dated. Such rich inner worlds.

Too bad a lot get pissed when you try to start a conversation while they're reading. :-P

  • [-]
  • chemchick27
  • 14 Points
  • 14:19:52, 30 April

I've always thought the "love yourself" stuff is a way to get someone to change. Going to gym when you're tired and would rather power watch House of Cards, or eating yet another salad when you really want a donut, those are hard things that you sure as hell won't do for someone you dislike. You have to love yourself enough to stick to those changes and work towards a better life for yourself. But some people definitely take it as love yourself because you are absolutely perfect right now, but that's the Disney answer. When you really love who you are, you are always striving to do better for yourself.

  • [-]
  • istara
  • 49 Points
  • 13:46:39, 30 April

> Everyone else does that "you need to love yourself" bullshit and it's so Disney.

I've never understood why people say this when all the research, ever shows that "beautiful" people get more opportunities, more respect and are more successful. Tall men earn more than short men. Some things you can't even change.

But the things you can change, they still do make a difference:

  • be as healthy as you can (fit, reasonable BMI)
  • dress as well as you can
  • get your hair styled as well as you can
  • fix your teeth (not chiclets, but clean and healthy and straight)
  • get your skin as good as you can
  • be as happy/confident as you can

All these things can be worked on. It doesn't mean you have to spend your entire life in a sharp business suit or prom dress, or have huge fake hair and nails. I actually think a more natural look works better. It does mean that when you need to make a good impression, you need to pull out at least some of the stops.

  • [-]
  • backnblack92
  • 86 Points
  • 13:28:37, 30 April

You should still love yourself, but you should love yourself so much that you strive to create the best version of you that you can.

You might never be a kate Upton, but I bet the best version of Vanessaroma is still attractive in her own right. Bring her out.

Don't get discouraged. Push yourself and don't give up. Last year I was 6'3'' pushing 300lbs. I was a forever alone loser. Today i'm about 215 (still a bit from my goal) and according to my Nike app I've run 1029mi in the last 232 days. To begin with it was hell. My knees hurt. my back hurt. It took 30min to go a mile. I hated myself and just wanted to give up. Gradually it got easier and easier. I could go farther and farther. Now it feels like a habit. If I don't go out and run I feel like my day isn't complete.

I figured this is my body and I should see what it is in good shape at least once in my life. If I wasn't attractive in the end, then oh well at least I tried. Trying is all we can really do. We can't control our genetics, but we can control some things about our appearance.

It worked too. I found a girl that liked me and have been dating her since feb.

/r/progresspics and /r/loseit helped a ton.

As a girl, you might also find /r/MakeupAddiction helpful.

My favorite part was the changes in my face as my weight went down. I thought for sure with a facial structure like mine my effort was pointless, but it wasn't. (I want to remain anomyous so no pics). I'll say this guy that posted in /r/progresspics was a huge motivation. He went from 260 to 190 and went from maybe a 3-4 attractiveness to a "goddamn". I guess this would be the girl version of that.

Everything you and OP up there said is pretty much spot on. When you're ugly you're invisible. You don't necessairly have to be invisible though. Just work hard if you want it. You might fail, but you might also be plesantly surprised

Goodluck. The goal is to try to be the best version of you you can be. You might not reach that goal, but a good version of you is still better than a mediocre version of you

  • [-]
  • istara
  • 21 Points
  • 13:51:21, 30 April

Those photos are just awesome! Really inspirational, and I am so happy for the people in them to benefit from what must have been some pretty hard work.

  • [-]
  • Bannedfromfun
  • 6 Points
  • 15:07:30, 30 April

I always like the Socrates quote

> “No person has the right to be an amateur in the matter of physical training. It is a shame for a person to grow old without seeing the beauty and strength of which their body is capable.”

Yeah, I gender neutralized the pronouns. It wasn't hard and it makes it a lot more appropriate to the context.

  • [-]
  • marri3d4life
  • 34 Points
  • 13:54:05, 30 April

For real though, I mean, most people's problems are that they are overweight and that changes your face and your body to something undesirable. But really, how many people are truly ugly? Most overweight women would be at least a solid 7.5/10 if they didn't have a weight issue. Weight aside, you'd have to have a really fucked up face to truly be ugly. I bet when you see all these "transformation" pictures before/after weight loss, you probably don't notice the body first. You notice that cut jaw line, that fresh hair cut, those pretty white teeth. You notice the face first. Your face tells so much about you. When it is hiding underneath a layer of fat, nobody can see the real you. It changes how you look when resting (aka bitchy resting face) and makes you unapproachable. But to get a thin head, you pretty much have to drop weight off your body. Nobody gets a fat face without having a fat body, as the face is one of the later areas of the body to get body fat.

As for me, I was never obese by any means, but just the average 210lb 5'10" person that didn't work out. I had a bit of a belly and not much of a defined jaw line because my neck was fat. I've always had some kind of relationship. During my last single time, I decided that I wanted to be in control of my life a bit more, so I broke out of my traditional 3-meal-a-day home cooking comfort food plan. Switched my morning bagel and coffee for eggs and water. Switched out lunch with co-workers to an avocado and egg salad. Dinner was steak on the grill, no sides. Then I'd just go for a walk. Walks became jogs, jogs became runs. 1 mile became 2, 2 miles became 5, and eventually I was just running 7 miles a day. In about a 3 month span I went from 210 and squishy to 160 and lean, and the attention from women was incredible. I got a new job with higher pay. Random people started talking to me. People noticed me. When running, got a few whistles and flirtatious gestures from women. Did a few 5k and 10k runs and women would touch my abs when I ran by or reach out for the high five. It was SO ADDICTING and it was a high that drugs could never touch. I married a fine woman and now I'm marri3d4life just like my screen name says. Now I'm back in the comfort zone, pushing about 200 and trying to get back to my fitter days, but know that YOU are in control and YOU can do it. You just have to find your inner will power to get started and break the mold. For me, consistency was the key. Daily walks after dinner were treated just like a job. Something that you have to be there for, on time, or be "fired". Only difference is that you are your own boss and you report to yourself. I was single, so walking and running gave me clarity, passed time, and I'd walk or run for sometimes 2-3 hours. Another thing that helped me realize how much I was really eating was to keep a food journal. Sit back and observe yourself... after a few days you will look at that list of all the BS you ate and realize that you could have cut out about half of it and still been just as full/satisfied. And I don't know your age, but you are only young once! I'd guess that you are 25-30. Take control now, and reap the benefits throughout the rest of your life, in your career, relationships, and friends.

  • [-]
  • notsoyoungpadawan
  • 23 Points
  • 11:44:02, 30 April

You're very welcome. Feel free to pm me if you need help with any of this stuff. I'll be happy to show you the ropes or at least help you get started.

  • [-]
  • vanessaroma
  • 39 Points
  • 11:58:50, 30 April

I'll just have you know that the way you gave me your advice is so greatly appreciated because you can read the askmen threads and the basic answers tell the same story: if you're pretty, you'll get approached.

And so for you, a guy, to tell me that I don't have to have pretty face, do you know how much of a revelation that is? It's like telling me what I want to hear but it's GENUINE. And that is what I appreciate from you. So thank you very much.

  • [-]
  • Autorotator
  • 27 Points
  • 12:46:23, 30 April

There is something that happens when you get in shape too, you will actually become more attractive in the face. Your skin tone becomes healthier, your eyes brighten up, you will find confidence that makes you smile more, and you will find your appearance completely different from when you started, even if you don't have a ton of weight to lose. You will look and feel so much more full of life that it will show on your face.

I'm approaching 40, I have two close friends who recently went through their separate divorces. Both hit the gym, one runs and the other swims. All the pics on FB from the last year show them both actually looking younger, definitely smiling more. Both had given up on taking care of themselves and surrendered to frumpy mom syndrome. You wouldn't know it after two years that they are the same people.

It does work. I read your posts and I hope like hell you make it, you deserve better.

  • [-]
  • boomerang_act
  • 34 Points
  • 12:31:47, 30 April

The thing about getting in really good shape is, it opens doors. You can adapt to new sports or physical activities easily. Friends going for a multi day hike, no problem. Someone asks you if you want to try rock climbing at a gym, no problem. A baseline of fitness makes you feel better, you carry yourself better. Even if you don't end up drowning in dick you still improve your situation. Your face does change when you lose weight and get in shape.

I got crazy lean thanks to /r/keto and lifting/running/biking 6 days a week since feb.

  • [-]
  • the_girl
  • 16 Points
  • 13:39:47, 30 April

You're absolutely right about physical activity opening doors. There's a guy I talk to at work who's extremely athletic, and has always been trying to get me to go with him to the gym. I hate gyms, so I always said no.

But then I tried running. And found I loved it.

And even though I can't tell whether it's made any difference physically, just telling the guy about my runs and how I'm working on improving my form has changed how he talks to me. We connect on a new level.

And big ups for keto! Changed my life.

  • [-]
  • yourparentss
  • 22 Points
  • 12:35:27, 30 April

It's not only the face or the body. It's also the way you are carrying yourself. Body language, that kinda stuff. Vibe matters...friend of mine got that vibe thing sorted out after getting laid for the first time. But you can improve in that department even if you are a virgin...physical activity works great and so do various mind games you can play while in public. Mind follows the body, the body follows the mind.

  • [-]
  • vanessaroma
  • 14 Points
  • 13:22:58, 30 April

I don't dwell on this problem everyday. So it's not seen in my body language. There are times when I'm super social, with my friends and stuff, and it will literally take one moment to trigger these feelings. It's usually the "cute guy at the party you were eyeing and talking to suddenly asking about your friend's relationship status and if she'd be into him" type of moment or "going to dinner and suddenly your friends start complaining that they have two guys they don't know who to choose from"

That's when my "aura" or "body language" turns negative. I don't bring this everywhere I go. I have too much self respect and respect for others to do that.

  • [-]
  • TominatorXX
  • 13 Points
  • 13:40:16, 30 April

I have also seen a people get into running, get into running groups. Not just a good way to meet people but it really helps their self confidence. Gives them another social circle. People really let their hair down when running. No makeup; no pressure. It's not a bar or purely social situation so its much easier to meet people.

  • [-]
  • paramount86
  • 5 Points
  • 14:35:37, 30 April

The irony here is that by getting in shape, dressing properly, showering/grooming regularly etc you are in fact 'loving yourself'.

People just don't realize that's what it means to 'love yourself'. They think it means saying nice things to yourself to make you 'feel' better.

  • [-]
  • Mavsma
  • 5 Points
  • 13:42:48, 30 April

I think hair and body make more impact to the perception of the average man. I see a lot of women I consider somewhat unattractive in the face, but they pull it together with great hair or a very fit body and the face is overlooked. I see a lot of beautiful just stunning women who aren't hardbodies, and all anyone can say is "if she could only lose some weight/tone up"

  • [-]
  • djaclsdk
  • 41 Points
  • 14:26:33, 30 April

> some desperate, horny, crazy girl

And ladies and gentlemen, this shows how we tend to project all kinds of nasty stuff to both ugly men and women but in different ways. Ugly men are accused of being a creep and ugly women are accused of being a desperate (think words that start with s or w).

  • [-]
  • thebankruptcy
  • 25 Points
  • 13:11:56, 30 April

>There are days where I just accept it and just deal with it, and there are WEEKS where I am crying my eyes out and asking God WHY!? You begin to feel worthless, pathetic and ugly. I tried everything I can. EVERYTHING. And I'm still ignored with no one to talk to. I'm on the bottom of this world's social ladder. And I don't want to be.

Solidarity there. Was at a pub with a friend, when some guy came up to talk. Clearly somewhat interested. Asked me a few questions. Holy crap was I excited. And then it hit him thay I'm trans. And instantly done. Not another word to me. Went to talk to my friend. She mentioned her kid. He walks away without another word. Stuff like that really just reinforces those feelings. That im untouchable or something.

  • [-]
  • Letracho
  • 12 Points
  • 08:48:05, 30 April

Would you say it's because men generally consider you ugly? Not trying to be a douche, I just want to know if its superficial or not.

  • [-]
  • vanessaroma
  • 11 Points
  • 11:16:26, 30 April

Well yeah. That's a huge part of it.

  • [-]
  • rikusansem
  • 30 Points
  • 09:24:44, 30 April

I'm Matt and I want to hug you, if that helps.

  • [-]
  • Cat-juggler
  • 7 Points
  • 15:00:59, 30 April

This whole topic has punched me in the balls. /u/chikinpickle's and your story have been keeping me awake turning all this shit in my head again.

from one person who also feels on the outside to another I offer as much warmth of human contact to another as can be provided through a string of text.

  • [-]
  • penguin_sweater
  • 7 Points
  • 16:57:33, 30 April

Oh fuck, I know those feels. I'm overweight, and it's very obvious.

On my 23rd birthday I thought it'd be fun to have a few drinks with a friend of mine. I tried so hard to look nice, I really did, whereas she didn't even change out of her work clothes. The entire night I got ignored by her because she was too busy talking to guys, except when she was telling me about all the guys hitting on her. The only male attention I got was a group of three dudes walking past who yelled "OH SHIT IT'S A FUCKING EARTHQUAKE" (keep in mind, I'm fat, but it's not like I'm 250lbs). Broke my heart.

I didn't go out expecting to get hit on, but after buying myself a nice dress as a birthday present to myself, and keeping a brave face when everyone forgot my birthday, it tore me up.

It wasn't the first time it'd happened, what you said about giving advice to crushes really hit home. The amount of times I had to do that in college/after is ridiculous, and the only thing worse is when someone would figure out I had a thing for them. The "I see you as a brother, but someone is out there for you!" spiel really hurts (especially since I'm female, though I am a tomboy I guess).

Or, the friends of the guy trying to hit on your friend "taking one for the team" by talking to you. Fuck I hate that with a passion, especially when they decide that they should at least get sex because they deserve it because they're doing a solid for their friend. Fuck that. And fuck them when they act surprised if I say no.

My unattractiveness and weight has nothing to do with my willingness to bang you. I can say no, and I shouldn't have to put up with guys being surprised because "Who else would sleep with you if I don't?". Seriously.

I'm a bit lucky in that I have been in two meaningful relationships, but I hate the fact that even now I have guys who act incredibly creepy toward me just because I'm fat. Because I must be begging for it because I'm not attractive, and therefore I'm an easy score. Granted, it's not often, but when the times it has happened stick in my mind because of how cruel they are when you say no. Because "You're ugly, I'm doing you a favour".

Being the ugly friend is fucking shit. Being ignored is shit. Being creeped on being you must be begging for it is shit. Fuck that noise.

  • [-]
  • noodlescodes
  • 20 Points
  • 11:48:35, 30 April

> I can't tell you how many times I've told my crush how to pick up another girl.

This. I can't begin to count how many times I've helped a girl I've had a thing for hook up with someone who doesn't care for her at all, is going to use her and discard her. Just yesterday I went through this. I was laying on her bed with her, and she was asking me for advice about what to do about this DJ she likes, and about how she hooked up with a work mate, and now things are awkward between them. Yet I was still there, helping her both with her emotions and with her academic work. I'm sure I'm appreciated, but if I ever admitted feelings to her, I have no doubt she'd discard me and not want to talk to me anymore.

One other thing that I haven't read yet in the thread which goes along with /u/Charliezard's quote, I'm intelligent enough to get a maths degree, and I'm complimented on my intelligence a reasonable amount by family and friends, but I'm never complimented on my appearance. Just once I'd like to be complimented on my appearance rather than what I can do.

  • [-]
  • JGWol
  • 18 Points
  • 13:08:01, 30 April

Engineering student here.. The mental game is real. There's women out there who really do appreciate wit and intelligence. You just have to play that.

And also realize that a lot of women are not going to find intelligence attractive. It's much a trait as any other, and if you're telling me that this girl was fretting over dating a DJ just after she had fucked someone at work.. She's probably not a brainiac.

  • [-]
  • Carkudo
  • 11 Points
  • 14:56:33, 30 April

There are definitely girls who are attracted to intelligence, but as far as my experience goes, intelligence does not get your foot in the door. It gives you an edge when you're already admitted to the competition.

Girls (well, people in general) who value intelligence I find easier to talk to. They give me more credit than usual. But there's as much sexual spark there as there is with anyone else. That is, none at all.

  • [-]
  • Moist_kitten
  • 11 Points
  • 13:47:36, 30 April

Have some Doge!

+/u/dogetipbot 50 doge

  • [-]
  • lmbb20
  • 4 Points
  • 15:01:22, 30 April

Just some friendly advice from a guy but I believe it will apply to your situation. (I hope this doesn't get downvoted to oblivion, I not good writer) Let me preface:

I gained tons of weight in middle school and didn't have a real relationship until college. I've always been quiet and I never got attention from girls. I've never had a lot of male friends either, one or two maybe.

Step 1:

Realize that other people don't control your life. It's yours and noone else's. If you want to do something, you'll do it. This is important since you stop relying on the outcome of other people's behavior.

Step 2:

If your friends are jerks (like they sound that they are) don't hang out with them. I would honestly confront them if they say things that hurt you. Tell them that you don't want anything to do with them if they are going to treat you like this. Life is finite and you shouldn't be wasting it with people that don't make you feel GOOD.

Step 3: You've got to get out there. You have to mentally tell yourself that you have to talk to strangers to be comfortable. This will be quite painful at first (I know and still struggle at times) but believe me it will get easier. Tell yourself that you don't control other people like they don't control you. So if you talk to someone and they blow you off it doesn't matter because you don't know that person's life story. They could be in mountains of debt or going through a relationship problem or they could be socially akward, who knows?

Step 4:

Now that you are psyched up and in the right mind set (it won't be perfect but you will feel that you can talk to a stranger)

Go anywhere where there are strangers. A park, a shopping mall, a dance club, whatever. It's not important where you go as long as there are strangers. Just go out and talk to people. If it's a sunny day, say nice weather to someone or Do you know how long it's going to stay nice like today? Force a smile even if you don't feel like it. I believe what you feel is that the world is spinning around you and you are just watching it.

Just talking to strangers will show you that the world isn't out to get you. If the juvenile people you deal with are more obsessed with you than their own life, they are such losers. Believe it or not with a friendly smile most strangers enjoy a little chat. They are probably too embarrassed to start a conversation with you or another stranger. Doing this will open your eyes to the other people in the world and not just the kind of lame people you have been describing.

Now Rinse, Repeat. As much as is necessary until finally one day it will become natural. As you become more talkative you will find things in common with other GOOD people that can become your friends. Just keep your expectations in check and remember that you can't control other people and they can't control you.

I have gone through all of the above many many many times until I've finally become comfortable (enough) in social situations with strangers. The loneliness fades and the world looks different, more beautiful, friendlier. I wish I knew about this advice years ago. Please try this and feel free to message me whenever you'd like to talk about whatever. I can be your coach if you'd like!

Good luck :)

Edit: Grammar and spelling, so much spelling.

  • [-]
  • MeOnVyvanse
  • 388 Points
  • 03:24:00, 30 April

You wrote what i always wanted to. You really do get used to being invisible. Trying just makes you feel worse.

  • [-]
  • DaTr0LL
  • 202 Points
  • 06:40:26, 30 April

Invisible isn't even half of it.

I actively found ways to make myself disappear. To blend in even when I stood out because of my weight. I became so good at being unmemorable, that I actively damaged myself socially and mentally.

  • [-]
  • Xiuhtec
  • 133 Points
  • 06:57:03, 30 April

Better to remain invisible than to suffer the kind of negative attention we get when we're noticed.

  • [-]
  • my_baby_ate_dingos
  • 69 Points
  • 11:21:02, 30 April

I used to think that way too, and I wasn't even overweight - Adjusting your stance, clothing, eye contact in order to avoid notice. Of course, then when you are noticed, you're "that creepy loner", which is marginally better than being "that pretentious jerk" in my book.

  • [-]
  • DK_The_White
  • 76 Points
  • 12:15:19, 30 April

Nailed it, brah. I've been single all my life simply because I think I'm unattractive, so I blend into the crowd. All reality, I'm a freakin' coward because I don't even try because I don't wanna be the creepy dude.

  • [-]
  • ZombieWall
  • 27 Points
  • 14:31:05, 30 April

I completely agree. I know I'm a fairly attractive guy, but when you try to talk to a girl and she gives you the 'why is this creep talking to me look,' it hurts. Then you start thinking, why should I talk to any girl, when experience tells me that the last couple of girls thought I was creepy?

  • [-]
  • strengthbandit
  • 21 Points
  • 15:32:44, 30 April

I'm in the exact same boat my man. I read something from a book called models by mark manson which i think may be beneficial to you...

"there's no such thing as a guy who is good with women who isn't also creepy some of the time"

he also goes on to say

"the fact of life is that if you are a man who expresses his sexuality freely (and you should), some women,some of the time, are going to find you creepy"

give yourself permission to be creepy!

  • [-]
  • That_Unknown_Guy
  • 25 Points
  • 11:44:59, 30 April

Really though pretentiousness is seen as attractive compared to creepy as it spews confidence.

  • [-]
  • u2412m
  • 47 Points
  • 06:57:31, 30 April

This is something that has damaged me for a long time. I learned to be invisible. The problem now is that I have lost the weight but my confidence is better but still far lower than most people. And this invisible thing is so hard to get rid of. I don't really know how to do it.

  • [-]
  • DaTr0LL
  • 36 Points
  • 08:54:40, 30 April

I'm finding that some of the more supportive groups on reddit (here's looking at you, askwomen) really are a help. I've been able to open up with my feelings and, while it's not direct interaction with another human being, it's a good first step. And with any major change in your life, that first step is the most crucial.

It's spurred me to make other changes in my life, and has been building my hope. And if you can build hope, you can keep going.

  • [-]
  • microcosmic5447
  • 8 Points
  • 12:46:58, 30 April

I've noticed in the last few years how I fill my physical space, especially around others. It's remarkable how adept such a big fat guy can be at minimizing his volume, and thus minimize his presence in the room.

  • [-]
  • That_Unknown_Guy
  • 19 Points
  • 11:43:51, 30 April

>Trying just makes you feel worse.

Soo true and it's because even when you do try, nothing changes. At least if you don't you can say it's because you aren't putting in effort.

  • [-]
  • dharmabird67
  • 28 Points
  • 14:41:14, 30 April

I am an ugly chick, have been either bullied or ignored for it most of my 47 years, to the point where I married a much younger guy in a 3rd world country knowing that he would probably leave me after he got his green card but thought maybe he might stick around(he didn't) - better to be a divorcee than a spinster i thought.... People say try makeup or sexy clothes but on me they look ridiculous. Anyone remember the Sally show in the '90s, when she would have fat girls on who wore bikinis, full of self-confidence, just to be booed and insulted by the audience? This is what it's like when you're ugly and you make an effort, it's like lipstick on a pig.

  • [-]
  • 52Hertz_whale
  • 229 Points
  • 13:19:18, 30 April

>As a woman, I don't think you could possibly understand the experience

As an unattractive woman, I read this entire post thinking "This is EXACTLY my life, EXACTLY". The invisibility-feeling especially. I don't know, maybe it's even worse for women because we are judged so ruthlessly on appearance? I can't tell. But I know exactly what you're describing and I'm torn between wanting to give you a high five and wanting to punch you in the nose for being so blind as to not realize that UNATTRACTIVE WOMAN GO THROUGH EXACTLY THE SAME SHIT.

  • [-]
  • TheMaidenDragon
  • 206 Points
  • 13:45:19, 30 April

He rejected ugly women that were into him, and then went ahead and told them they don't know how it feels. I mean what the fuck.

  • [-]
  • occipixel_lobe
  • 31 Points
  • 14:36:49, 30 April

I'm a guy, and I think that is an excellent point. Everyone wants to feel special, even in their suffering.

  • [-]
  • sadsax
  • 45 Points
  • 13:49:17, 30 April

I was thinking the same thing. :\

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 27 Points
  • 14:09:34, 30 April

[deleted]

  • [-]
  • Night_Chicken
  • 21 Points
  • 15:11:32, 30 April

Thank you for writing this. People don't seem to understand that depression is, effectively, a detachment from reality and that detachment is often manifest by an overwhelming inability to relate to others and a chronic sense of alienation. Talking about that alienation seems to rankle a lot of people, indicative that many have not experienced that level of detached alienation associated with legitimate mental illness. Speaking as a person who has experienced it first hand, his statement about the contradictions regarding unattractive females is true to the experience. Part of the delusion of depression is that your situation is unique and EVERYONE else isn't like you. Yes, it's not nice, not progressive and it is mysogynistic, and fundamentally not true, but it is what a person experiences when they are clinically depressed. Telling him he's wrong to think and feel that way is like telling a person who is submerged in a tank of water to just breathe normally since you, who are not submerged, can breathe just fine. There is a context that is escaping you.

  • [-]
  • Alaendil
  • 6 Points
  • 14:50:07, 30 April

He posted a kind of followup to that line

http://www.reddit.com/r/AskMen/comments/24bwmt/whatislifelikeforanunattractive_man/ch5t7pj

  • [-]
  • bears2013
  • 9 Points
  • 16:53:18, 30 April

Don't worry, he apparently spends his time posting on fat-hating forums about how much he hates fat women. I wonder if he'll ever enjoy a healthy relationship with those exceedingly bitter "I'm a nice guy fuck tha world, fucking women" opinions.

>You fight the wars, work the shit jobs, sacrifice your body because it's what men have always done. It's the burden we bear.

I mean what the fuck is this.

  • [-]
  • reuben_
  • 25 Points
  • 14:33:20, 30 April

>wanting to punch you in the nose for being so blind as to not realize that UNATTRACTIVE WOMAN GO THROUGH EXACTLY THE SAME SHIT

Well, yeah, but how is he supposed to learn that if he doesn't have any contact with women?

  • [-]
  • WHAT_ABOUT_DEROZAN
  • 8 Points
  • 16:57:20, 30 April

Well, yeah, but how is he supposed to learn when he won't talk to women he finds "unattractive" and he'd rather watch porn instead?

He's the only one to blame here.

  • [-]
  • ceilingkat
  • 289 Points
  • 06:52:57, 30 April

I totally understand that as a woman we couldn't understand what it's like to be an ugly man and I'm not going to play the "who has it worse game" but ugly women have a very similar experience to this. You even said in your post that the few women that would come your way were just as undesirable so you'd just go watch porn.

Flip this from that ugly girl's perspective. She gets up the courage to approach a guy she thinks could possibly accept her, she's willing to accept him, and even he doesn't want to have shit to do with her.

I can see your point where you say women have other women to listen to them and share their feelings with. And that definitely is a plus of being a woman that you can always share with your girls.

Still, there's this annoying antiquated view of women's worth being attached to their looks, whereas men's worth is attached to their utility. While this obviously doesn't hold true in a black and white spectrum, this is typically how the scale tends to balance in society right now. Do you disagree?

  • [-]
  • ceilingkat
  • 210 Points
  • 06:34:52, 30 April

I think the most depressing thing about this is where you said the only girls that come your way are just as undesirable so you just go watch porn. It wasn't even trying to justify the hypocrisy. It just is what it is. This post is truth and depressing as shit.

  • [-]
  • Analog265
  • 66 Points
  • 13:26:14, 30 April

I'm not gonna act like its a nice thing, but he is being honest.

Human attraction isn't rational and you're not gonna be attracted to obese people just for the sake of logically consistency.

  • [-]
  • That_Unknown_Guy
  • 74 Points
  • 12:00:06, 30 April

Yup. When you are under your own minimum threshold there is nothing more depressing.

  • [-]
  • PUNKSHAMAN
  • 29 Points
  • 13:50:11, 30 April

when you know that you are a worthless piece of shit, the only thing worse than you is anyone who expresses an interest in you. Also because of the teasing and bullying, you cant trust anyone, so even if you manage to open yourself up, you're always waiting for the punchline at your expense, you're always expecting an ulterior motive.

  • [-]
  • jk147
  • 28 Points
  • 14:06:36, 30 April

I going to be frank.. If you are not desirable and want someone desirable. You better be damn rich or start working on being desirable. If you cant cope with your own vanity and think you are above your own pay grade then you are going to be miserable for a long, long time.

  • [-]
  • RichAfterTaxes
  • 6 Points
  • 14:03:01, 30 April

In all fairness, he may not have been referring just to physical attractiveness. They could be manipulative, malicious, etc. instead.

Though your interpretation is probably the more likely one, no doubt.

  • [-]
  • HeyZuesHChrist
  • 28 Points
  • 13:29:12, 30 April

Rarely do I ever read something that I can really, really relate to, but this was one of those times and this hits me hard. I too was fat and ugly, and I too lost a lot of weight. The thing is, I spent an entire decade being completely and utterly ignored as well. When you talked about the lack of human contact making you weird, I know exactly what you're talking about. I know this will sound weird (and it is) but even those rare times when I was fat and ugly and a woman greeted me with a hug I didn't want it. I would spend so much time without any physical contact with another human that even the smallest amount was only a reminder of what I was missing out on. Yeah, that sounds creepy, I know. But like you said, having no contact with other people makes you weird, and I went a decade with very little to no physical contact with people. It's about as low on the lonely scale that you can go.

I'll tell you what the worst part is, though. After losing 85lbs and getting into good shape, I'm still ignored. I also have nobody to talk about this with, but the reality is that the decade I spent being fat, ugly, and completely ignored has destroyed me. It's impossible for me to even accept a compliment, because I don't believe them, just like the many times a friend of mine told me some girl liked me when she didn't. I've fallen for that so many times. It still happens to this day, only I won't fall for it. I know they think they're doing me a favor, but they aren't. They're only setting me up for failure, which I can't afford to suffer through anymore. The only thing being fat and ugly has done for me is forced me to be a realist. It has allowed me to see the through people.

As low as I was when I was fat and ugly, believe it or not I've found something even worse. The only thing worse than being ignored when you're fat and ugly is losing the weight, getting into good shape, and still being ignored. At least when I was fat I had an excuse. I had hope. Now, I have no more excuses. This is reality.

  • [-]
  • Rikkoe
  • 70 Points
  • 07:34:35, 30 April

I'm a man who grew up obese and recently lost a lot of weight and look pretty damn good as long as i have clothes on. you mention the bitterness of being an attractive/formerly-unattractive male and i relate so hard its not even funny.. women pay attention to me now that wouldnt have batted an eye at me a few years ago.. its strange and i almost hate them.

  • [-]
  • suzycarmichael
  • 62 Points
  • 14:17:58, 30 April

I'm a girl and when I lost weight all of a sudden all these guys that never talked to me swore they always liked me but were too shy to say anything. Bullshit.

I ignore all of them and only give the guys that always treated me like a human being even when I was bigger my attention. But then my friends will say "you're too good for that guy! You can find someone much cuter!" And I hate when they say that. I know what its like to be ignored so I give people who are always ignored a chance. They are usually incredibly sweet guys. I find that they are more worth my time.

  • [-]
  • AFlaccidWalrus
  • 13 Points
  • 15:04:52, 30 April

Hoooooly shit. I've been doing this exact thing to girls now that I'm in college. I went through a crazy self improvement phase the past 2 years, and now in my freshman year of college I've got a lot of girls interested in me all of a sudden. Even girls from my highschool that wouldn't pay me any attention before. I'm thought something was wrong with me cuz I keep turning down these attractive girls that are only interested in me because of my looks. I got used to needing be awesome to get people to notice me, now when they just do it automatically without even knowing me, it really turns me off for some reason.

  • [-]
  • chikinpickle
  • 36 Points
  • 07:44:38, 30 April

It's almost surreal isn't it? Like you are the butt of a large scale socially engineered version of the "sally the 7th grader likes you" joke.

  • [-]
  • Oodava
  • 6 Points
  • 15:31:20, 30 April

You can't let the bitterness get to you. Understand that attractiveness is very much as associated with our underlying evolutionary urges than anything else. Fat, square bodies aren't making that reptile brain buzz, it's the feminine hourglass. In the same way a girl isn't going to look at an obese man (regardless of his personality) and think "I want to fuck that" as she will a guy with broad shoulders who's muscular. Is it fair? Fuck no, but life is the most unfair thing you will ever experience. You proved through losing the weight that you are a safe and healthy breeding prospect both mentally and physically and now the women are attracted. To be bitter is to not believe in second chances, and to not believe in second chances is to not believe in your new life.

  • [-]
  • Reddit_SuckLeperCock
  • 13 Points
  • 08:54:32, 30 April

That's touching man, I've never seen it put so eloquently before. I was never obese, but I've been invisible for most of my life. It's such a vicious spiral of soul sucking depression... It got to the point where I asked myself What's the point of living if no-one knows you're alive?

Thankfully my family pulled me out of the suicidal black hole I was in at the last second. For anyone who feels this way now, there are people out there who want to help you. Please get help, life is beautiful and should be cherished.

  • [-]
  • nranger7
  • 54 Points
  • 13:43:31, 30 April

Wow. How is it that "even ugly women have shoulders to cry on"? That's news to me. Where can I get one? Do they have those at WalMart?

  • [-]
  • ObieKaybee
  • 7 Points
  • 14:37:44, 30 April

I wouldn't go for the Walmart brands, they aren't very absorbent and they will give you a rash on your face. Go with any other brand.

  • [-]
  • bleunt
  • 51 Points
  • 07:28:47, 30 April

> On top of all this, you can't even talk to anybody about it. Because nobody cares about how men feel about things. Certainly not other men, and women have no respect for a soft guy. Not unless he can turn it off and be a dick at will.

As a former heavy guy who lost weight, I agree with what you're saying. It's rough. Then when you lose weight and can wear better clothes, all of sudden women talk to you. Even other men are sometimes nicer to you. But growing up unattractive made me humble, and it made me develop a personality. I've had to be interesting and engaging in order to keep their interest in me.

Either way, I think you're a bit harsh when you say women have no respect for a soft guy. Now, you and I probably come from different cultures. But where I live (Sweden) a lot of women do appreciate guys who show themselves vulnerable and emotional. I've never had any issues with that. It hasn't gotten me friendzoned. Most women actually seem to find a man in touch with his emotions and his tortured self quite attractive.

But it is true that men have it a lot harder to be emotional, and talk about their feelings. There's a macho attitude of "suck it up and be a man". There's a reason why more men than women commit suicide. There's a reason why more men lash out in violence and anger. All that pent up sorrow. It's a real issue.

  • [-]
  • yoshi314
  • 16 Points
  • 07:12:52, 30 April

It hits home so many times. I was also obese most of my young years, and got similar treatment.

I was basically invisible to people. I've lost weight and the condition remains. Mostly because i am still disillusioned and jaded from my years of being ignored/bullied and swept aside. Body is easier to fix.

  • [-]
  • Jendall
  • 65 Points
  • 13:51:52, 30 April

> and the few stray women who might come your way are just as undesirable as you are

This seems to be a bit of a double-standard. You're complaining that people treat you worse because you are ugly, but then you go and do the same to women.

Also, I think you are underestimating the effect your personality has on this. I know some obese men who are unattractive in every sense of the word, but also have very big personalities, and I can say they are definitely not ignored.

Edit: To clarify, I don't think people can just choose their personality. I'm not saying to just be a more likeable person. I'm just noting that it's not only the physical condition, although that doesn't help.

  • [-]
  • GreenlyRose
  • 57 Points
  • 13:55:02, 30 April

As a formerly fat and ugly, now good-looking women, I think you seriously underestimate the impact being ugly has on a woman. Men's societal worth is often tied to their financial success, women have no such fall back. Our worth is intrinsically tied to our looks, period. An ugly man can get rich, and will find he is perceived as attractive, but an ugly rich woman will still not be attractive.

Of course, women have other means to improve our looks (makeup, etc), but fat woman have little worth in the dating scene. Even a lot of fat guys won't date fat girls. Being able to cry on your friends' shoulders doesn't make up for the fact that even unattractive men laugh at the thought of anyone dating you.

Again, "unattractive" for men = not financially successful. "Unattractive" for women = not pretty, always.

  • [-]
  • Sammuhdaman
  • 6 Points
  • 15:01:44, 30 April

You are right about the bitterness of a good looking former fat guy... I used to weigh near 300 lbs my freshman - sophomore years in high school. Having any kind of relationship with a woman was simply out of the question. I had to pretend that I didn't have feelings just to get by...

I lost the weight, started taking care of myself, and subsequently gained a lot of attention from the women folk... but why should I give any thought to that attention? I've known these girls for the better part of my life, and only NOW they give me attention? I'm still the same guy I always was... Their words still ring in my ears: "We're just too good of friends, I wouldn't want to mess that up!" "You're not my type" "you're too nice/sweet/good for me". They aren't saying that now. For the first time in my life, I am being pursued. It all seems so fake that I wish I weren't sought after. My experience has just shown me how cruel the situation can be. I'm still a "nice guy", I'm just disenchanted by relationships all together.

  • [-]
  • Should_I_say_this
  • 11 Points
  • 12:54:12, 30 April

As an average looking minority the invisible thing really hits home. Its like I'm not even human to most women. When I go travel to the country of my people I'm human again and maybe even considered slightly attractive. Its amazing how half this world doesn't think I exist and the other half does. Too bad I don't speak the language over there and too bad I was born in 'the land of opportunity'. Life is hard mode over here...

  • [-]
  • Reganato
  • 13 Points
  • 14:10:40, 30 April

Term project? Try this shit as an adult! It's a fucking eye opener, that's for sure!

I can corroborate everything he just said; everyone treats you differently.

I'm not going to rate where I was on a 1 to 10 scale, but I went from a flabby ~300 to a lean, muscled, svelte 180 in about a year or so.

People... actually listened to me more, took me more seriously. It made me a little lazy in fact. I no longer had to work for the respect of my peers and coworkers. Speaking of work, it was easier to get a job as well... When I applied in person. I did a walk in application, brought my resume, and was hired on the spot for what was a fairly good job. I remember two of the managers dropping by the room I was in for training the first day I was there. While they were walking down the hall away from the room I was reading training materials in, presumably they thought they were out of earshot when I heard one comment to the other "he looks like one of those Abercrombie models or something..."

Dating was much improved. Frankly I wish I'd had the confidence to take advantage of my looks while I had them. I had no trouble picking up women and experienced a first... women actively trying to lure me away from my girlfriend. It actually worked once or twice. Even more fucked up... women I had dated, my ex-girlfriends started offering me sex. Like, not in as casual terms as that, but would invite me, explicitly, to come out drinking and spend the night at their place. Once that invitation did include "and I'll blow you."

Yeah, being in shape and attractive, if you aren't and haven't been, is a completely fucking different world. You might not even believe me if you haven't experienced it for yourself. The best analogy I can give about going from fat and blah to thin and attractive is if you watch the old SNL skit where Eddie Murphy goes out disguised as a white man. It's truly that level of shock.

Wish I hadn't gotten fat again...

  • [-]
  • messiahwannabe
  • 42 Points
  • 13:59:35, 30 April

shit, i'll probably get slammed for this, but:

can ugly people not just hook up with other ugly people? i mean, here you are, complaining about how no one pays attention you. you are invisible. no one wants to hook up with you. the immediate reply right beneath yours: a girl, bemoaning the same fate, due to her looks. but: are there not a roughly even number of ugly women and men in the world? is there really no way to get past this "problem"? are sure you're not angry cause you can't meet good looking girls?

ok, i get it - it would suck being blatantly ignored by the world every time someone better looking walked into the room. but i dunno, i've got some not-handsome, overweight friends who have no problem dominating a social gathering by sheer force of personality.

not to belittle your experience, which doesn't sound far fetched. but, are you sure it's 100% due to your looks?

*source: i've been young & good looking, and i've been fat, older, and unattractive. when i was older, overweight, and not particularly attractive, i dated other older, overweight, not particularly attractive girls. why wouldn't i - what am i, a hypocrite? to be honest, it wasn't that big a deal. overweight dude, dating overweight girls. no one was shocked, and i had a girlfriend, who was as happy to have me as i was to have her. win all around.

i've scrolled through like 50 comments and no one's pointed out this fairly obvious solution yet - what's with that?

  • [-]
  • ObieKaybee
  • 18 Points
  • 14:41:39, 30 April

You could hook up with other ugly people, but the thing is, after a while the damage sets in and you just stop trying/caring. Another person further up in the post said it better then I could, "When you realize you are a worthless piece of shit, the only person who could be worse is someone who actually shows interest in you."

  • [-]
  • babeigotastewgoing
  • 5 Points
  • 16:58:52, 30 April

I just want to add that as a man in the process of losing weight, I am literally getting hotter by the minute.

  • [-]
  • thepulloutmethod
  • 29 Points
  • 11:35:00, 30 April

The only thing I'm going to say is that this "be an asshole" advice is bullshit. Being confident, charming, and having a sense of humor will work better every single time.

  • [-]
  • ktbird7
  • 5 Points
  • 15:35:17, 30 April

I both agree and disagree. My husband is very charming to me and very funny. However, in the right circumstance he can be a complete asshole to other people if they deserve it, and I find that trait attractive.

I suspect it has to do with a primal instinct of a man protecting his woman+offspring.

I know it doesn't make any sense in the modern world but it's just the reality of what my instinct says.

  • [-]
  • babblepedia
  • 12 Points
  • 13:31:31, 30 April

The article you posted was thought-provoking, but the part that stood out was when he was upset that women lied to him and said "you're nice" instead of critiquing his appearance to help him be more attractive.

So, if I can PSA for a second: If you want advice on becoming more attractive from your ladyfriends, ask for it. Ask for help making your OKCupid profile better. Ask for help with your clothes. We're happy to oblige. But we're not going to give unsolicited advice if you complain about having no dates, because in girlworld, that would be like kicking you while you're down. It would feel like saying "No wonder you have no dates, you're an ugly turd."

If you have no dates, ask for different help.

  • [-]
  • stareattheart
  • 37 Points
  • 07:57:09, 30 April

Welcome to the experience of having cystic hormonal acne. Acne is one of those diseases no one will feel sorry for mocking. But it is a disease, and it's on your face. I've had it since I was 10.

Luckily I can paint my face and obscure it, but I cannot perfectly hide the plague that is my face. When I say plague I'm serious, it looks like my face is having a civil war with itself.

The difference in whether I wear my warpaint and dress nicely is astounding. People actually treat me like a human being.

I've recently realised that I was never really approached by any guy, and I've always had to do all the moves. Initiating everything is really tiring.

Right now I'm doing an experiment to see how long I have to wait for anyone to approach me without doing the first move.

People keep saying girls get all this free shit from men. Where the fuck is my free shit? Or attention? Or anything.

  • [-]
  • smoomoo31
  • 15 Points
  • 11:37:09, 30 April

>I've recently realised that I was never really approached by any guy, and I've always had to do all the moves. Initiating everything is really tiring.

I'm curious, what's your success rate when you approach? Men are expected to make the first move. For an unattractive male, the odds are ridiculously low.

  • [-]
  • Polisher
  • 22 Points
  • 14:09:12, 30 April

I have a lot of sympathy for you, but your attitude towards women is disconcerting. I understand you're coming from a place where you've had a lot of bad experiences with women, but you of all people should know not to stereotype, but instead empathize with the misery of others. Maybe unattractive women have a different experience than unattractive men, but that doesn't make their misery any less painful. Truly, I sympathize with you. Our culture can be painfully brutal to people of all different stripes of outcast. But try and turn your experience into a positive learning opportunity to empathize and give love to other people.

  • [-]
  • urgentthingstodo
  • 24 Points
  • 13:54:56, 30 April

>As a woman, I don't think you could possibly understand the experience.

This seems relevant...

  • [-]
  • gwarster
  • 22 Points
  • 14:39:34, 30 April

> It will never be good enough, and the few stray women who might come your way are just as undesirable as you are

So you're bitter because people judge you based on your appearance, but it is ok for you to do the same thing?

  • [-]
  • Camille_Lionne
  • 18 Points
  • 15:48:07, 30 April

that's all I took from this post. OP was not attractive. OP developed nasty bad attitude instead of developing a good personality (which is what successful ugly people do),

then got all bitter and butthurt because he felt he deserved better than to date his equivalent ugly, bitter, angry person, so he just stayed alone.

and people upvoted this shit? gilded it? i'm disgusted.

  • [-]
  • iama_XXL
  • 9 Points
  • 12:57:10, 30 April

>except perhaps the bitterness of a good looking former fat guy.

I can attest to this. It's something I still struggle with. But my commitment issues still stem from my early 20s. To say that shit doesn't stay with you is a lie. As soon as a girl wants a relationship, I think back to all the times I wasn't worthy of one and immediately I question her motives which usually leads to me just telling her no thanks and moving on. My longest relationship was 8 months long.

The reason is this, just like in the article you posted, you are lied to all your life that you are such a sweet, caring guy and someone will come along...eventually. Yet that never got you anywhere. So now she wants a relationship. What gives? I know it's not my winning personality, it was never good enough before. Is it the size of my wallet? Could be, but I don't disclose figures, they would have to look up an average salary for my title to know what I make. So, what's left? Physical appearance. Ding ding ding. They didn't give a fuck about you being the nice guy 9 years ago when you were 280. So you start to question, are all women really that shallow? But you're fucking this solid 8, so who cares if she's shallow? Well, if the only thing that sold her on you was your appearance, where will she be when you get older? So, instead of opening myself up to what I see as inevitable heartache, I move on from them. I can honestly say, I've never been in love. It honestly scares me to death.

Just like in the article, I really wish someone had of told me during high school "fuck all the dbags and bitches knocking you down. Hit the gym, when you are pushing out that last rep, picture them. Knock it out just as a 'fuck you' to them. Become stronger and better they are. Make them hate you as much as you hate them. Then, when you've lost the weight and got that physique, and the bitches come along, don't give them the satisfaction. There will be others, better ones, and you will never know another dry spell for as long as you will it."

  • [-]
  • DigiSmackd
  • 5 Points
  • 14:50:25, 30 April

The poem/short "To This Day" by Shane Koyczan is one of my all-time favorite and most touching pieces that does a great job of touching on most of the things you mention. I wish everyone would take the time to watch it. Turn the volume up, give it your undivided attention, and watch it in its entirety.

  • [-]
  • curiosityshop
  • 5 Points
  • 15:48:55, 30 April

I have a lot of sympathy for you, as a woman who's been heavy since childhood. I married a heavy guy (brilliant, funny, deeply ethical, hard working) -- we've been together nearly 30 years and have a normal-weight son. I'm very grateful that he's not heavy, because the emotional challenge of it can be overwhelming.

In sympathizing with what you've gone through, though, I was disappointed that you said you believe women have it easier. Many heavy women also keep the pain of being fat to themselves, especially when their friends are not overweight. There's a lot of shame associated with it, and other girls are often very unkind. Guys often made friends with me or ignored me (unless they heckled me on the street); other girls / women have more often been directly cruel. I have been bullied and beaten, excluded and shamed.

I was also disappointed to hear you say that you weren't interested in girls that you thought were also losers. Being heavy isn't ideal, and it comes with a lot of challenges, but it doesn't make anyone an automatic loser. People do often have to face they will attract people at their same relative level of physical attractiveness (unless they are wealthy men). For someone who is unattractive by conventional standards to then impose that judgment and exclusion on others is, well, a shame.

  • [-]
  • Glantonne
  • 3 Points
  • 16:50:58, 30 April

Never have I seen and been left unaffected by a whinge this strong

  • [-]
  • TheCarpetPissers
  • 25 Points
  • 04:50:50, 30 April

Jesus....that's rough bro. I never realized life was like that for some people.

  • [-]
  • DelCarbon
  • 69 Points
  • 05:13:18, 30 April

That is pretty much me for the last 4 or 5 years. I don't think I'll make it much longer. If it weren't for my mom, I'd probably have offed myself by now. I just couldn't do that to her.

You just... don't feel human after a while. That lack of affection and love... it takes its toll.

  • [-]
  • Segfault-er
  • 22 Points
  • 06:14:16, 30 April

Please consider going to therapy. I've been where you are, things get better. It will not be easy but eventually you'll look back and realize how far you've come.

  • [-]
  • MrZakalwe
  • 11 Points
  • 09:17:51, 30 April

There are always people who will give a fuck- even if it's strangers online like us. Don't ever think you ever need to face things alone; there are plenty of decent people in the world.

  • [-]
  • SECRETLY_BEHIND_YOU
  • 30 Points
  • 07:21:12, 30 April

As someone who can still relate to every word in that post, it's those types of things that people who post things on reddit that fat shame or defend it need to understand. They say things like "they need to know it's not okay to be fat, blah blah blah, they need that motivation" to defend themselves against it, and it's just a complete bullshit excuse to keep bullying after high school.

Day to day life as an undesirable, is undesirable, I don't need a strangers help to make me realize it. </rant>

  • [-]
  • TheProdigalBootycall
  • 35 Points
  • 10:41:48, 30 April

Unattractive women have it pretty bad because they are judged on their appearance so much more. But in all honesty, women cannot understand that for unattractive dudes, the world is not only indifferent but hostile. If they had the capacity to understand this, things like "Nice Guys of OKC" would not exist because they would see it for what it is: finding lonely, sad, pathetic dudes and kicking them when they're down. The male equivalent would be a world-famous blog ridiculing fat girls that gets the outspoken support of all known media and academic institutions.

  • [-]
  • Dotura
  • 6 Points
  • 09:02:18, 30 April

This thread made me sad and happy at the same time. Same because it puts words to feelings i had/have, happy because i'm not alone.

  • [-]
  • wwwwwhy
  • 6 Points
  • 13:25:28, 30 April

The worst part is the jealousy of seeing other guys get all this female attention while I know I'm never going to have that.

I was at a party this past weekend. There was someone there I know, no job, drug addict, high school drop out, no car, lives with his parents at 23. Complete asshole. He had half the girls at the party throwing their selfs at him. He went to bed with two girls.

There I am, only one there with a decent job, I have a growing business, one of the three people with a car, my own place, only one dressed nice.. And I can't get a smile back from a girl.

  • [-]
  • my_name_is_X
  • 126 Points
  • 01:57:01, 30 April

Women don't want to be hit on, ever, unless it's by an attractive dude, so you can kiss playing "the game" goodbye. There is not a single instance where a girl wants to be hit on, they go to the bars to be with their friends, the want to be left alone at the grocery store, same goes for work, church, or virtually any other social function. So yeah, you're right, after hearing so many girls call every instance where a guy hits on them a "creep" I take the hint and don't even try.

As far as letting myself go, there's not point buying expensive clothes (believe me I've tried) or combing my hair to make it look better (also tried). I look just the same in an expensive suit as I do a cheap one from Sears, slightly less than average, and no amount of Rogaine will change my hairline or thin hair, but frankly I don't care much about that to begin with lol. Now an attractive person on the other hand, has a lot to gain from buying hair products, nice clothes, etc...it would be nice to need those things.

As far as dating and relationships, those are non-existent. As for life and public encounters, you find other outcasts like you, people who are rejected or not noticed and you make friends.

Overall, I've come to compare being an unattractive single guy to something like losing an arm or leg or getting cancer. It really sucks, so much more than most people understand, and while you do learn to live with it and forget about it for short periods of time, you are constantly reminded that your life isn't quite as good as it could be, which happens, ironically enough, the more you try to "put yourself out there". Baseball games, ice skating, any sort of class are bound to be chalk full of couples, couples, couples...and you, awkwardly by yourself.

Some days are better than others and I'm not gonna lie there's days I feel like killing myself over it. It's really not much fun. But you try to tell yourself life doesn't revolve around dating anyway while all the happy couples smile and tell you the same thing lol. It's unfortunate but nothing to complain about, lots of people have it much worse or suffer in other ways.

  • [-]
  • grittex
  • 121 Points
  • 03:21:55, 30 April

>I look just the same in an expensive suit as I do a cheap one from Sears

For the record, this is almost never true.

  • [-]
  • The_Canadian
  • 67 Points
  • 04:36:36, 30 April

I think he was talking about how people perceive him. I can wear a suit one day and a university sweatshirt the next and nobody acts any differently toward me.

In this case, you can wear a nice suit and a cheap one and still get the same reaction: none.

  • [-]
  • Information_Cowboy
  • 42 Points
  • 04:56:11, 30 April

A polished turd is still a turd.

  • [-]
  • RicardoWanderlust
  • 14 Points
  • 11:37:00, 30 April

Which would you rather eat? Ice cream flavoured turd, or a turd-flavoured ice cream. Some people would go for the first option.

  • [-]
  • Asunder_
  • 8 Points
  • 03:36:57, 30 April

It's true for the most part only thing different is what the suit is made of. I've worn a cheap suit and an expensive dollar suit both were tailored for me and I look the same in both the only difference is one was the material it was made from.

  • [-]
  • DelCarbon
  • 7 Points
  • 02:22:13, 30 April

Said it much better than I did below, but I'm with you buddy. I feel guilty for even loathing over it in the first place when others out there suffer much worse things than being ugly.

  • [-]
  • Decker87
  • 7 Points
  • 06:35:04, 30 April

I know this is personal so I understand if the answer is no, but would you be able to post a picture? I want to get some idea just how ugly you are.

  • [-]
  • blanketfetish
  • 53 Points
  • 03:36:02, 30 April

I can already feel the downvotes, but I would like to throw my cents in.

True, women like being hit on by attractive guys. But on the same note, guys like being hit on by attractive women. I'm conventionally attractive woman. I am also a server/bartender. I get hit on A LOT.

I don't mind when an unattractive guy tries to hit on me. That is not when I describe a guy as creepy. I call a guy a creep by the way he goes about trying to hit on me. For example, I was working tonight, doing my thing. A table comes in that I've waited on before. The first time, he got wasted and kept staring at me in a way that I could tell he was undressing me with his eyes, called me gorgeous where, in his drunk mind, he thought I couldn't hear.

Tonight, I asked another server to take the table. She did, and I was left in peace. Until I was leaving. He ran out the door after me (it's dark, people) yelling. Strike one. He then proceeds to stare at me (I get that you can be nervous and not know what to say) with those same undressing eyes. Up. And. Down. Strike two. He'd look me up and down, clearly checking me out, during every awkward pause between every damn sentence.

Called me gorgeous again, said he felt like a creep, and that he was sorry he didn't realize me and another coworker were two different people. Uh, really? And still staring, up and down, up and down. Finally asks for my number. Not a damned chance. That was creepy as hell. Especially after having come in every day for a week to stalk my coworker and I.

Edit: please don't kill yourself. It's not worth it. Get a couple of friends together and go do these things! Just have fun! Be a cool person! I've wanted to go out with guys that were not at my level of attractiveness because I loved their personalities, and that is SO much more important! Single hot guys are generally either assholes or idiots IMO...

  • [-]
  • mashonem
  • 15 Points
  • 02:01:25, 30 April

I accepted I was ugly when I was 16 after going through a self-improvement phase. I realized that no matter how much I lifted and how well I ate, I still looked and sounded like a child that got hit with an acne brick. As a result, I learned to live without dating or relationships; it can suck at times, but if I can't like myself, how can I expect someone else to.

Since I stopped trying to date, interacting with people in public became a lot easier. Most people will be friendly as long as you're friendly as well; there's no being openly mocked or anything like that. As for women, I just assume that if they start talking to me out of the blue, they're either being friendly, doing their job, or trying to get me to buy something.

Six years later, I started working out consistently again 9 months ago and I'm in the best shape of my life. I recently started taking meds for my acne (doctor prescribed), and hopefully before the end of the year I'll be able to support myself without my parent's help, but I'm doing all this shit for me, not so I can coax some woman into thinking I'm attractive.

  • [-]
  • DolphinBoy_Future
  • 26 Points
  • 07:50:01, 30 April

I don't know if I count but I definitely used to be ugly as fuck. This post will get buried anyways.

In high school I was always the funny weird kid, and a tiny bit overweight. I had full blown gynecomastia (man boobs that you can't get rid of) to the point it literally looked like a girl with small boobs. My hair was long and greasy. I was someone who wasn't white and tall, so being in a private school full of white rich kids was not helpful. Most women prefer tall white dudes. It's a fact of life. It's a reason why Asian men are usually unsuccessful with women in the states. I was also a shut-in playing video games whenever I could. It was the only place where I felt important. I always thought that I would die alone and that no one would ever care. So what was the point in trying at all? I only did enough work in school to be satisfactory. A B+ was what it took to make my parents happy and I only put in enough effort that I needed to. In general I was content just doing homework and playing video games and once in a blue moon go to a friends house. I wish I could go back and do better.

In college I started following /r/malefashionadvice and /r/malehairadvice, and even started working out. I also got surgery for my gynecomastia. My god the difference was huge. I was actually catching alot of people's eyes. People actually made eye contact with me or I'd catch them turning away as I looked at them. Some even held eye contact and smiled. It felt so alien that I actually thought something was wrong with me. I thought I looked weird or somehow spilled shit on my face and forgot to clean up. It was only until then did I realize that I may actually be considered somewhat attractive.

However the problems I'm dealing with now are things I'll never be able to change and that whole cycle of depression from high school has come back. I'm short and I have a small penis. Before you tell me that I'm probably average I most definitely am not. I'm 4" length x 4.5" girth. Most women are appalled by the sight of small dicks, and many hate short men. I'm a combination of both. So together both of things put me back on the scale of being unattractive.

Now after I changed myself it felt great. It really did. For awhile I actually felt like I had a chance with life in general to be happy like everyone else. I soon realized even with all the improvements to myself I've made that it's still unlikely that a girl will ever want to be with me.

Alot of women say size doesn't matter but it really really does especially in the long run. Ever hear anything good about small dicks on the internet or in real life? It's basically okay to ridicule men of having small penises because we are lesser men apparently. They are okay with average and up. Hell not too long ago I was about to lose my virginity, but before I could she asked me to leave once she saw my dick.

Honestly the most unattractive thing about I would say is probably my penis, and that itself has made me immensely depressed and may soon be edging on towards suicidal.

tl;dr: Was unattractive and made alot improvements, even though I got a little attention from women. I am now seen as unwanted rather than unattractive due to my height and penis size and it's slowly killing me inside and has made me incredibly bitter towards women.

Sorry if my grammar and tone is a bit off, it's pretty late here.

  • [-]
  • DiscontentDisciple
  • 11 Points
  • 13:42:11, 30 April

Get a book or two about kink. Seriously, sex is hugely psychological. Learn to play with your partners in more than a physical sense. While physical size matters for creating some sensations there are hundreds of other sensations to create that don't require a horse dick. And when you're confident enough, and want to create those, there are penis sheath / extender toys you can wear.

Relax, have fun, think outside the box.

  • [-]
  • dbaker102194
  • 14 Points
  • 05:24:46, 30 April

Just want to throw out there, a study done found that women find 3/5ths of men "below average" attractiveness.

Whereas men consider 1/4 of women to be below average.

Men don't care as much when it comes to looks, at least not initially. That makes being an unattractive man a little harder.

  • [-]
  • malignantbacon
  • 5 Points
  • 09:14:16, 30 April

There was an OKC study that said the first number was more like 8 in 10.

  • [-]
  • urmyheartBeatStopR
  • 5 Points
  • 05:55:26, 30 April

> Ugly men - what is it like for you? Life, dating, relationships, public encounters...

Um... ugly in term of being short I guess. 5'4''

Overall, working out, nice groom and playing the number games worked out very well. So far it gets better and better...

edit:

Before self improvement, I had long hair look liked some gangster from the Triad and people thought I was a shut in. Horrible dress style and such. I worked out but my clothes were baggy.

No one really approach me and I was nerdy so it didn't really helped. Fixing my social skills helped opened up many opportunities to meet more women and such.

edit 2:

Throughout college I thought once I got my Comp Sci degree I'll have a great paying job, going go dating with women, and take care of my parent and shit.

Once I got my career going I ended up just studying to get a higher paying job. Depress and wondering where's all the women at?

All my work places I've worked for, were mostly guys and old people with family already. We can't really hang out after work at the bar or etc.. It was depressing.

So I guess that's the provider mentality for ya.

  • [-]
  • Nallenbot
  • 5 Points
  • 14:27:33, 30 April

I never fully understood that I am ugly, my brother is good looking and what a difference that makes. Then we both got a job working at the same place on a contract.

Hooooly shit was that depressing. Naively thinking she was talking to him because she was a friendly chatty person, then getting absolutely shut down for saying hello or smiling. By the receptionist. Or the girl at the sandwich shop. Or the barmaid. Or the person selling the train tickets. Or the people we worked with...wait a minute...is everyone treating him better than me? They are aren't they. Fuck.

  • [-]
  • zoinks690
  • 12 Points
  • 11:00:06, 30 April

"If you can't be handsome, at least be handy."

What always irks me is when attractive folks pretend they "understand" what it's like. They'll say "Oh yeh I've had it rough too." No you haven't. You've NEVER had it tough. You're entire life has been one of ease in the relationships department. Oh, you had big arguments with attractive people? Ugly folks would trade places with you in a heartbeat. Getting hired, getting promoted, simply being treated like a human -- all tougher if you don't look nice.

  • [-]
  • hi-ex
  • 11 Points
  • 07:05:32, 30 April

I feel invisible, unless someone feels the need to call me ugly. Feeling like this isn't limited to men though, and I think saying that women can't understand or have it easy is dismissing a lot of people who also want to be noticed.

  • [-]
  • Z7Z7Z
  • 4 Points
  • 11:37:13, 30 April

Life tends to involve a lot of reddit.

  • [-]
  • Afterthought2
  • 4 Points
  • 14:11:26, 30 April

I'm a fat ugly bald guy and I let myself go. I just get drunk everyday and play video games if I'm not working. I've been alone since I can remember. Was picked on a lot growing up. Really destroyed any sense of self esteem I may of ever had. Watched all my not-ugly friends get girlfriends and forget all about me. I gave up on the idea of ever finding a female. It's just not in my cards. I used to try. I used to ask girls out. I used to be nice to girls. Not anymore though. It's pointless. The results are the same if I give a fuck or not so what's the point in giving a fuck?

  • [-]
  • flalpzpeo
  • 4 Points
  • 16:13:10, 30 April

Normal. You get used to your best friend getting all the girls you like because he's attractive. You get used to everyone else in your social group being in a relationship while yourself is forever alone. You get used to being the odd one out. You get used to being called a 'hacker' because that's all people recognise you as. You get used to the days drifting by without any female attention, just doing your work and getting the grades. Then you start planning ahead, what you're going to do at university and college, thinking will you think any more attractive later in like, and remembering that you're ugly as fuck.

It's a constant irritant, and you're reminded of it every time you look in a mirror, relationships become a think you experience in primary school and public encounters do not exist except for the rare times that you go out with your friends.

Life is boring. Life is monotonous, waiting for the days to wind by until the next half term where you are greeted by peace. Waiting until the end of the day to see the girl that you like, but probably still likes my best friend.

Nobody really cares about what you do, nobody likes you because they're too busy with the other people.

"I have no reason to live but I have no reason to die"

  • [-]
  • onlypawningameoflife
  • 4 Points
  • 16:27:12, 30 April

This story hits very close to home. I am 34 years old, never been on a date, had a gf or had sex. I have no friends, not because I didn't have any, there were a few but they got married and moved on. new jobs, new cities. Now I feel that bottomless pit.....how do you escape when no one can even hear you screaming for help.....you are invisible.