Why the fuck are almost all feminist related posts and replies immediately downvoted in the feminist subreddit????? (self.Feminism)

Feminism

160 ups - 69 downs = 91 votes

Does this make anyone else angry? The amount of posts rated at 0 is way off base compared to other subreddits.

Also, I often see feminist comments downvoted. Why can't feminists have a safe space for their own fucking subreddit?

Edit: the irony of people downvoting this selfpost kind of proves my point that there is a problem...

56 comments submitted at 06:45:09 on May 13, 2014 by ChicagoRunner

  • [-]
  • demmian
  • 35 Points
  • 06:49:17, 13 May

The usual answer is brigading

There is currently a brigade going on in /r/AskFeminists, from /r/mensrights, and it has spilled over. Other times it is r/funny, adviceanimals, r/4chan, or even 4chan itself. Such is the life on an open anonymous forum, when promoting women's issues I guess :/ We pondered several times making another private subreddit, but I am personally not sure if it would provide a net benefit.

  • [-]
  • ChicagoRunner
  • 13 Points
  • 06:51:54, 13 May

In some sports subreddits, the downvote buttons are not visible or disabled, making it more difficult to downvote simply due to team affiliation. Maybe something like that could be used here?

You could still downvote on mobile, but maybe it would make it more difficult to brigade

  • [-]
  • demmian
  • 13 Points
  • 08:01:13, 13 May

It is tricky. We tried that in the past, but it didn't seem to make much of a difference for people who come here with an agenda to disrupt. The downvote removal can be circumvented in a myriad of ways, some taking 1 click only. We were also worried of the other effects - it "officially" concedes the grounds to them, thus inviting more downvotes (a subreddit should be normally able to downvote what the users do not consider relevant/helpful - but not in an antagonistic manner like this), and there were also signs that the removal itself may instigate more downvotes, out of spite. Damned if you do, damned if you don't. The only solution is for our users to be more active with votes; pretty much daily, the top thread(s) garners 100+ net votes, so that is definitely possible.

  • [-]
  • ChicagoRunner
  • 6 Points
  • 08:13:13, 13 May

Interesting... I try to be active but I hardly see any flair from other users. Feminism is such a polarizing topic on reddit that the democracy system doesn't work so well here.

Would disabling downvotes for new posts and comments work? Like a 30 minute or 60 minute window?

I wish this subreddit would have more conversations like "socialist or marxist feminism?" Instead of having to fight off trolls to stay consistently relevant.

  • [-]
  • demmian
  • 4 Points
  • 08:14:33, 13 May

> Would disabling downvotes for new posts and comments work? Like a 30 minute or 60 minute window?

Hm, to the best of my knowledge, no such option exists. You can only hide the vote for comments for a certain period of time, but that doesn't technically prevent downvoting.

  • [-]
  • ChicagoRunner
  • 1 Points
  • 08:17:56, 13 May

Would dialogue with r/mensrights mods help? I think its a reasonable hypothesis to suggest that many of the downvote brigades come from there or at least frequent that subreddit.

If one of their mods were to request to members of that community to allow feminist safe spaces on reddit, maybe they would listen.... because you know, male privilege

  • [-]
  • demmian
  • 4 Points
  • 08:28:59, 13 May

> I think its a reasonable hypothesis to suggest that many of the downvote brigades come from there or at least frequent that subreddit.

That is correct, to the best of my knowledge.

>Would dialogue with r/mensrights mods help?

We tried. The most they are willing to do is ~enforce the .np links, which is too easy to work around also.

Just look at this:

http://i.imgur.com/q6evNP0.png

Then an r/mr mod themselves posts to the target thread... you know... brigading...

http://i.imgur.com/cnHMvRW.png

http://np.reddit.com/r/offmychest/comments/25b7j7/icanttakethisifmygirlfriendhitsme_one/

As you can see, brigading is a fact du jour there, that even their mods would participate in...

  • [-]
  • ChicagoRunner
  • 6 Points
  • 08:41:54, 13 May

By the way, thank you for taking the time to reply and have discussions in the various threads. It is nice when mods are active and part of the community.

  • [-]
  • demmian
  • 4 Points
  • 08:48:02, 13 May

You're welcome! We usually offer this information on modmail when requested, but here more of our users can see this exchange.

  • [-]
  • ChicagoRunner
  • 5 Points
  • 08:37:57, 13 May

I see... I'm all out of ideas then. I was hoping that if I posted a few terrible ones then someone smarter than me would come and correct me with some brilliant solution :p

I guess I will just have to be an active member of the community and hope that it inspires others.

You're infamous over there by the way. I think that's hilarious.

  • [-]
  • demmian
  • 8 Points
  • 08:39:53, 13 May

> You're infamous over there by the way. I think that's hilarious.

Yeah... I get a lot of "loving" PMs from users in that sub. "Activism".

  • [-]
  • ChicagoRunner
  • 7 Points
  • 08:47:07, 13 May

Well your work is appreciated. Don't let them get you down. I can't imagine all the derogatory slurs and threats you may receive... I know it's just internet strangers but that shit can get to you sometimes

  • [-]
  • sleepyllamaface
  • 3 Points
  • 09:41:12, 13 May

I wouldn't waste my breath. I've tried to engage on there and they're so anti-feminist that they practically foam at the mouth. There are also posts on there actively encouraging people to disrupt feminist conversations.

  • [-]
  • demmian
  • -1 Points
  • 11:27:30, 13 May

> There are also posts on there actively encouraging people to disrupt feminist conversations.

Yeah, that's the sad part. This subreddit, as a whole (not just the mods) could not care less how badly other subreddits get; it's their business, we don't police them. They, however, see it as a badge of honor, nay, a responsibility, to disrupt feminist conversations.

Of course if people in other subreddits focus on what hate is spewed in r/mr, they get really angry about it, with no end in sight to the insults. It is only when they do it, that it is beyond reproach (same with false rape accusations spamming, shutting down conferences in London, doxing website register-her, etc).

  • [-]
  • someoneliketarzan
  • -1 Points
  • 14:42:01, 13 May

I disagree. Personally, I have never seen a post that encourages people to disrupt feminists conversations, but I believe you nevertheless. However, it is not true that we see it as a badge of honor to spam feminist threads. Perhaps some do, but that does not mean all of us. Myself, I am subscribed to both mr and feminism out of mere interest and I have observed on both sides that people often generalise negative traits with the other sex. It is true that some of you feminist cannot be discussed with because you simply choose to ignore reasonable arguments with different excuses, often it's "because you are male". Therefore, everybody on mr says that women cannot be talked to. When they do, I disagree! Same thing goes for guys: some are just assholes, and they get downvotes. But that does not mean all of us are! What most reasonable posts on mr are about is popular feminist activists not truly seeking equality for women like they claim they do, but rather more rights for women. Myself, like many of my friends agree that women are often treated badly; and equality is a good, necessary goal - which doesn't mean that men have to be treated worse than women! This is what irritates many guys on r/mensrights

  • [-]
  • twelve_fall_sat_eat
  • 0 Points
  • 13:00:07, 13 May

/r/cutekids disables downvoting full stop.

  • [-]
  • demmian
  • 5 Points
  • 13:32:07, 13 May

Well, unless you disable css, or use RES and disable per sub, or browse /r/cutekids+none... there are many ways :/

  • [-]
  • sopernova23
  • 2 Points
  • 14:53:00, 13 May

I'm able to downvote on that sub by unchecking the "use subreddit style" box.

  • [-]
  • GaySunshine
  • 4 Points
  • 08:40:40, 13 May

It would be cool if the sub was visible to everybody but accounts had to be approved by the mods before they could vote/comment

  • [-]
  • demmian
  • 7 Points
  • 08:47:00, 13 May

So true... mods all over reddit have been clamoring for years for such an option. It has even received a name - "transparent setting", where mods can assign to the approved submitters list (which already exists) the rights to vote and/or comment. The admins have ignored such requests ever since they were made though...

  • [-]
  • GaySunshine
  • 4 Points
  • 09:49:33, 13 May

How sad :(

I can't imagine it being super hard to do either. Then again, I have said that about things that have turned out very hard.

You could probably make something similar with css flair (obviously you could get around it, but it would be a barrier for outside members and not inside members)

  • [-]
  • demmian
  • 1 Points
  • 09:56:43, 13 May

> You could probably make something similar with css flair (obviously you could get around it, but it would be a barrier for outside members and not inside members)

Hm, you mean auto-remove comments made by people without a flair? The problem would be that many antagonists use flairs, many feminists don't, or are not even aware of it.

  • [-]
  • GaySunshine
  • 2 Points
  • 10:37:20, 13 May

Mods can add a css class to flair. It says 'welcome gaysunshine' with the flair css on the right. I can change the words, but not the class. If the page doesn't see a class that mods put on there you could hide the comment/reply/vote/submit stuff. I will see if I can make a working version sometime this weekend. Then one could just have a bot auto add the css class to everybody with positive karma on the sub. mods/bots could then add/remove people at will. It probably won't work on mobile though. Dunno.

  • [-]
  • demmian
  • 1 Points
  • 10:49:32, 13 May

Interesting. I wonder what you mean (I am not sure I get it completely), I will look over the css if you have time to make it, thanks :)

  • [-]
  • Keroak
  • 4 Points
  • 12:47:57, 13 May

Could you give me the link to any thread organizing a brigade? I'd like to show it in a course about gender equality.

  • [-]
  • demmian
  • 2 Points
  • 14:15:56, 13 May

Here is an example -

http://www.reddit.com/r/MensRights/comments/1yj22d/wasthinkingthiswasprettyinterestingwhat_do/

linking to

http://www.reddit.com/r/Feminism/comments/1ygjz8/ijustrealizedthattheredditmrasubislisted/cfkuxar

Of course, our user got downvoted well below zero, with insults to follow (that we removed).

  • [-]
  • Entonations
  • 1 Points
  • 14:54:46, 13 May

I don't understand the hate from mens rights and feminists. Honestly, if both sides had a down to earth conversation and didn't spit fire at each other, they'd find that they agree on more than one thing. Stuff like this is childish.

  • [-]
  • mathgeek29
  • 12 Points
  • 09:32:40, 13 May

Yeah, it pisses me off to no end. I commented about it in /r/askfeminists, which gets a ton of troll posts from sockpuppet accounts, several times a day it seems. I have more problem with it happening here; at least /r/AskFeminists is part-intended for non-feminists to challenge feminists. Here it's supposed to be a feminist space for feminists to chat/debate with one another, not somewhere we're supposed to defend from anti-feminists.

It's difficult to know how to deal with it though. The mods clearly aren't afraid to swing the ban-hammer - example in this very thread. But even banning the trolls doesn't work so well when all they have to do is make another throwaway account in order to come right back.

I would also be in favour of making the sub private, even just for a trial period, to see if it helps. I don't know what else to do really. It's a conundrum :-/

  • [-]
  • demmian
  • 9 Points
  • 09:46:56, 13 May

> I would also be in favour of making the sub private, even just for a trial period, to see if it helps. I don't know what else to do really.

I am certain the decision to make /r/Feminism private will not be taken. Another sub could be made private though; it would allow feminists-only to participate.

A feminists-only open sub, on an open anonymous platform, is technically impossible, there is no way for us to cannot guarantee who participates. On a private sub, we would get the chance to vet who joins in. If the users of our community would feel favorable towards such an initiative, we could give it a try.

  • [-]
  • theswansays
  • 6 Points
  • 09:32:34, 13 May

/u/demmian, if you have proof that /r/mensrights are brigading, isn't this something that can result in some sort of action from site wide mods?

  • [-]
  • demmian
  • 6 Points
  • 09:44:10, 13 May

> /u/demmian, if you have proof that /r/mensrights are brigading, isn't this something that can result in some sort of action from site wide mods?

That is correct. We report crosslinks, some users usually get shadowbanned (not all the times, sometimes the admin reaction is late, or maybe absent altogether). The only proper evidence is in the hands of the admins, they see who clicked what to get to where, the rest of us can only report circumstantial evidence, sort of speaking, or report self-admissions of brigading.

  • [-]
  • jamecquo
  • 4 Points
  • 12:44:14, 13 May

Can the consistent offenders be banned?

  • [-]
  • demmian
  • 1 Points
  • 14:01:54, 13 May

We, as subreddit mods, ban any instance of invading or trolling. When people simply downvote through invasion links, there is nothing we can do though :/ Only the admins can see who invades, and only they can ban reddit-wide (it is only an account ban; as far as I know, IP bans are exceedingly rare).

  • [-]
  • ChicagoRunner
  • 10 Points
  • 06:49:02, 13 May

I won't apologize for the vulgarity because this deserves more attention.

  • [-]
  • Velvetrose
  • 2 Points
  • 14:36:22, 13 May

I don't tend to post much on this Sub for this reason. I feel like the downvote brigade hits most of my posts which in turn makes me feel like my opinions aren't wanted so...

  • [-]
  • Unaccounted
  • 4 Points
  • 13:48:31, 13 May

I personally don't worry about it much. I think about it a lot, but I don't worry. When I signed up for this whole fight for equality, I recognized that I was joining a team of people willing to fight as Sisyphus in a never-ending battle for fairness.

The number of down votes each thread gets, helps me to understand the enormity of the problem in front of me. And I actually came to Reddit so that I could get a feel for the depth and breath of the problem.

Yes, it's unfortunate, no it's not fair, yes it should be different. But I'm ready to grit my teeth and strategize.

  • [-]
  • kaltorak
  • 3 Points
  • 13:44:54, 13 May

Not only that but multiple times I've seen people come in and post bait links to gross-out shock pics.

  • [-]
  • Cigars_Whiskey_Steak
  • 1 Points
  • 14:24:26, 13 May

And the answer is of course not. People are assholes.

  • [-]
  • btvsrcks
  • 1 Points
  • 14:45:46, 13 May

I don't really notice, but then I tend not to come to the subreddit, I have it as a part of my front page, and links show up periodically.

  • [-]
  • StigVaderWho
  • -6 Points
  • 12:56:11, 13 May

I'm probably gonna get a lot of shit for this but I think I might have found a reason: http://i.imgur.com/0Xp8fgA.png

I don't know if this sort of thing happens here all the time but if it does...then I can see why everyone get's a lot of downvotes.

  • [-]
  • Unaccounted
  • 4 Points
  • 13:37:33, 13 May

I don't see any proof that Indignantary is a feminist. For all we know they could be a troll that is trying to make feminists look bad.

  • [-]
  • demmian
  • 5 Points
  • 13:59:36, 13 May

Just to clarify, that comment was not made in our community.

Also, AVFM, featured prominently on the r/mr sidebar, has posted a lot of hateful stuff - see here - but few MRAs seem to be bothered by it, so there you have it.

  • [-]
  • Iknowthiskidhere
  • 7 Points
  • 13:10:09, 13 May

I do not understand. That comment has nothing to do with feminism.

  • [-]
  • YrSerpentinePad
  • 2 Points
  • 13:44:45, 13 May

Just one incident like that doesn't explain why there's posts getting instantly downvoted though, to me. As OP said, we have a bunch of posts at 0, and it's hard to see why, unless, obviously, brigading.

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 0 Points
  • 07:32:53, 13 May

[deleted]

  • [-]
  • ChicagoRunner
  • 11 Points
  • 07:49:50, 13 May

The problem is due to an inherent flaw in the democracy-like voting system. Feminists are a minority on reddit, yet nonfeminists raid their safespaces and attempt to downvote and change the conversation.

There needs to be a way for protecting the minority in a democracy system or else the feminist subreddits will continue to be watered down by nonfeminists.

The problem with the downvotes is that it is an act of silencing as it makes posts and comments fall from view.

Feminist posts and comments shouldn't be downvoted in the feminist subreddits because the point of their existence is to allow a space for feminists to discuss feminism. It isnt a place for feminists to attempt to defend feminism against people who won't chamge their mind in the first place.

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 1 Points
  • 08:13:23, 13 May

[deleted]

  • [-]
  • demmian
  • 12 Points
  • 08:15:28, 13 May

Well, two warnings against derailing and no heeding. Bye.

  • [-]
  • sleepyllamaface
  • 7 Points
  • 09:32:22, 13 May

Totally unrelated but I spend way too much time on internet boards and rarely see such decent, even-handed moderation. Thanks for your time!

  • [-]
  • Unaccounted
  • 1 Points
  • 13:46:08, 13 May

the comment you replied to is deleted.

This is an awesome point, and I agree with the spirit of it. But I feel that expecting this to happen on Reddit is (at this point) wishful thinking.

I originally got acquainted with feminism on social networks like facebook and google plus. While the comment nesting isn't as advanced, the troll banning seems to work better there. So I would consider those to be better spaces for feminists to share amongst themselves.

Though I agree, it still sucks that we have to retreat because we can't be afforded the same level of respect of other groups on reddit. But now that I said that, I imagine that r/feminism gets a similar number of downvotes to upvotes as r/christianity might, which is why I'm seriously considering moving my primary activist focus away from feminism and over into teaching people basic levels of respect for each other.

  • [-]
  • demmian
  • 5 Points
  • 08:09:47, 13 May

Stop derailing... I already warned you in another thread.

  • [-]
  • ChicagoRunner
  • 4 Points
  • 07:53:17, 13 May

Also, demmian was right. It is basic level stuff and the user who was banned was being a troll.

Yes you can be both, but the user in question didn't understand the concept that the word "feminist" isn't a dirty, doesn't mean inequality and something to be ashamed of. The banned user missed the entire point of the clever comic.