[Discussion] You are given the power to fix 2XC, how do you do it? (self.FemmeThoughts)

FemmeThoughts

43 ups - 12 downs = 31 votes

One Rule: It has to stay a default subreddit.

I'm of the opinion that it is not the end of the world that 2XC went default. Could it have been handled better? Yes. Should the members been given more warning? Absolutely. I know that many members of the community enjoyed the seclusion, and felt more comfortable sharing their stories before.

I also think that we should not have to hide our opinions and feelings because we are women. Are their going to be trolls? Of course, but I don't want to let some bored, pathetic people stop me from sharing what I'm thinking or feeling because they have nothing better to do with their lives. Will their be ignorant men? Yes, we see them in our everyday lives, to hope to ignore them on the internet is an unattainable fantasy.

But I do know that we need a private space (like this) to discuss without having to be interrupted or trolled. Where we can get the support to discuss our very personal stories.

So what is everyone else's take on it?

58 comments submitted at 15:58:35 on May 16, 2014 by Super_Frez

  • [-]
  • bwahhahahackhack
  • 24 Points
  • 20:54:44, 16 May

Add tags to everyone that mansplains or is a rape apologist or whatever. Publicly shame them. Have them earn tag removal.

'As a man' = automatically gets a male symbol tag.

'As a man .... but your view is invalid' = mansplainer male symbol

'As a women who is THE snowflake' = female symbol and snowflake

tags could include: Victim blaming, devils advocate, creeps on women's pics

  • [-]
  • Du__Du_Hast
  • 2 Points
  • 20:31:33, 17 May

What is a rape apilogist?

  • [-]
  • bwahhahahackhack
  • 2 Points
  • 21:22:59, 17 May

'Well you just didn't say no loud enough' 'If he isn't showing bruises you didn't really try to fight him off' 'If you're in a relationship you can't be raped'

  • [-]
  • Du__Du_Hast
  • 4 Points
  • 22:21:56, 17 May

Ugh. That's disgusting. That's what happened to me. My ex raped me after I broke up with him.

"You had consensual sex just days before. What changed?"

He cheated...

"Well, how was he supposed to know it wasn't just roleplaying?"

  • [-]
  • Du__Du_Hast
  • 2 Points
  • 20:32:02, 17 May

This is a great idea!

  • [-]
  • cordis_melum
  • 55 Points
  • 17:07:58, 16 May

First off, 2XC needs a lot more mods. They need to be active mods, who care about the community and want it to thrive. Seriously, just twelve moderators with the power to remove posts? That's not enough for a default subreddit, period. And with 2XC, they're going to need much more. A friend of mine estimated that for a default subreddit that'll eventually reach several million subscribers, you need ideally at least 50 different moderators manning the comments and modmail queue.

Second of all, you know what? Let's get rid of the tone policing rule. Fuck tone policing. Rape apologia is still rape apologia no matter how nicely you try to dress it up. You can totally polish a turd (the Mythbusters did it), but it is still turd. And for a subreddit about women, turds are bad.

Rape apologia? Ban. Blatant trolling? Ban. Bigotry? Ban. Mansplaining? Warn them, and if they don't improve, ban. Derailment to "what about the men"? Remove the thread derailment, warn the person derailing, if they have a history, ban. I know that the moderators want to welcome discussion on all genders, and that's fine, but this is primarily a subreddit for women to talk about being women. Lose sight of this, and you're doomed to fail. If the OP makes it clear that the topic is about women's issues, it better be about women's issues.

Bigotry = instant ban. We want a space that is welcome to women. Being a bigot makes people feel unwelcome. Why the fuck do you want to coddle the voices of bigots for? Bigots drive away people.

Get the community involved. Be open about what you're doing and encourage them to send reports for rule breaking. You want your community to work with you, not against you.

And again, more mods.

  • [-]
  • Redkiteflying
  • 24 Points
  • 17:41:40, 16 May

People can say what they will about SRS, but the mods there are quick with a ban button, and there are more than enough of them to handle any trolling or bigotry that comes up in the comment threads. SRS has fewer subscribers than 2XC and is a less active subreddit, but it has significantly more mods than 2XC.

  • [-]
  • Spawnzer
  • 11 Points
  • 21:38:02, 16 May

This is how it should work everywhere seriously

When in doubt, ban

If the person believe their ban is unjustified then they'll shoot the mods a modmail and they'll be able to review the case to see if they were too quick to ban or not

  • [-]
  • Redkiteflying
  • 9 Points
  • 21:41:29, 16 May

Shit, I've been banned from SRS three times since I started frequenting the Fempire, and I was reinstated in every case when it became clear that 1]. I was banned in error, or 2]. I recognized that I fucked up, apologized for fucking up, and agreed to try harder not to fuck up.

  • [-]
  • codayus
  • 11 Points
  • 01:32:21, 17 May

I made a sarcastic comment which got taken literally and got banned; quick message to the mods to explain and I was immediately reinstated. For all the harsh reputation of the Fempire, the mods are pretty damn good. (Then again, they'd have to be. SRS is build on the wreckage of good feminist subs destroyed by trolls, and the same fate awaits them if they relax.)

  • [-]
  • cordis_melum
  • 6 Points
  • 17:49:00, 16 May

Fuck, even AMR has a better active mods:subscriber ratio; we have about one active moderator for every 438 subscribers.

  • [-]
  • miscreantpossum
  • 4 Points
  • 18:36:19, 16 May

We have 1 human mod for every 86(ish) subscribers.

  • [-]
  • miscreantpossum
  • 14 Points
  • 18:34:41, 16 May

> You can totally polish a turd (the Mythbusters did it), but it is still turd.

<3

  • [-]
  • Nillix
  • 6 Points
  • 22:45:01, 16 May

Anyone have a link? I must see this...

  • [-]
  • miscreantpossum
  • 9 Points
  • 23:23:03, 16 May

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yiJ9fy1qSFI ;)

  • [-]
  • Nillix
  • 7 Points
  • 23:32:15, 16 May

My life is complete!

  • [-]
  • A_Haert
  • 16 Points
  • 17:11:37, 16 May

This is the only correct answer. Heavy on the bans for people that break the rules. It seriously could not be cleaned up any other way.

  • [-]
  • GoatMother
  • 10 Points
  • 18:17:07, 16 May

My fear is that people start getting banned for holding unpopular opinions. Rules like "No Mansplaining" are so subjective that they could justify warning or banning someone just for disagreeing. I don't want to see 2XC turn into /r/feminism, but I recognize that moderation is very necessary.

  • [-]
  • codayus
  • 8 Points
  • 03:49:23, 17 May

As /u/miscreantpossum said, /r/feminism is sort of a special problem, because it (and it's sister sub /r/AskFeminists) is part of /u/demmian's little empire, and he's an incredibly bad mod.

There's an entire sub (/r/WhereAreTheFeminists) devoted to cateloguing his misdeeds, but the TL;DR is that he has a bunch of secret rules (which include, eg, never linking to any SRS affiliated subredit under any circumstances), and he will automatically ban anyone for criticizing him, suggesting a change in rules, disagreeing with his very idiosyncratic definition of feminism, or (especially!) posting in /r/WhereAreTheFeminists. This has culminated in his banning many of the top commentors to /r/Feminism and /r/AskFeminists over the past month or so for, in essence, being too feminist.

(Meanwhile, he has a documented history of bending the rules for MRAs; he will routinely delete comments from prominent MRA posters that theoretically qualify for a ban; he has defended this in the past by saying he does it in an effort to improve the subs reputation among MRAs, which is...I don't even know what that is.)

TL;DR: I don't think we need to worry about 2XC turning into /r/feminism; it is its own special little disaster.

(For more, try this AMA, or really anything in that sub.)

  • [-]
  • miscreantpossum
  • 10 Points
  • 18:40:46, 16 May

The problem with /r/Feminism and /r/AskFeminists is that they are controlled by Demmian.

There is a lot of drama around him in that on askfeminists the mod accounts there are sock puppets of his. As for /r/Feminism it's rumoured those are also sock puppets as there was drama in that people thought the subreddit needed more mods, and he was forced into adding "new" mods. It's highly likely they're alts too.

/u/codayus can give you a better run down once he's awake in a few hours.

  • [-]
  • Shmaesh
  • 9 Points
  • 18:44:22, 16 May

We're currently pursuing a tiered approach to certain types of unwanted behavior. Mansplaining is one of them.

We want men here, and we value men's opinions, so in order to walk that fine line, we're using a three-strikes approach for issues like that to help users know we're on top of what's going on, while also not moderating with the banhammer of doom.

The only insta-ban offenses we plan to pursue are listed in the sidebar.

ETA: Didn't realize which thread this was. My bad.

  • [-]
  • GoatMother
  • 5 Points
  • 21:13:33, 16 May

My concern with mansplaining is that it's really a matter of tone, which often is hard to judge online. There are some posts that are obviously patronizing, and others that are questionable. I feel like when someone disagrees with us we're more likely to assume those questionable cases were definitely being disrespectful.

I can see a three strike system helping, but I still have my concerns.

  • [-]
  • Shmaesh
  • 5 Points
  • 21:15:45, 16 May

We're aiming solely for warning on comments which invalidate the perspective they respond to.

That's a key part of why mansplaining is an issue, and limiting our modding to those instances should keep us in the clear.

  • [-]
  • sparsile
  • 6 Points
  • 17:27:06, 16 May

I one hundred percent agree with your banning policy. Banning the people who are making the sub so shitty is the only way it's going to get cleaned up.

  • [-]
  • maidivine
  • 18 Points
  • 19:52:44, 16 May

It needs a Mod-army. One that is swift and strong. I recently posted there and felt totally slut shamed. I am very glad I used a throwaway account.

  • [-]
  • albatrawesome
  • 9 Points
  • 17:40:31, 16 May

I just got downvoted to hell by adding what I thought was a good piece of advice/alternate viewpoint. My comment wasn't mean or disrespectful, and it actually generated the most discussion on that thread, but it currently has 46 downvotes. I'm all for downvoting rude comments that don't add anything to the discussion (mansplaining, shaming, blaming, etc.) but I think some people just downvote because they don't agree and then people follow suit because it's fun to downvote someone into oblivion. So, yeah, doing away with downvoting just because you disagree.

  • [-]
  • dream6601
  • 6 Points
  • 20:21:42, 16 May

don't worry about downvotes, they're so stupid.

I'm VERY VERY into women, I keep getting told it's not right for me to identify as lesbian because I had a boyfriend once, and I still admire the male form occasionally, I have no desire to ever be with a man ever again.

OP of that thread is exactly fliped from me. and yet people are telling you she's 100% straight, and yet I'm not 100% gay. That's more of that man sex counts for more than woman sex bullshit

  • [-]
  • Noilen
  • 6 Points
  • 23:17:09, 16 May

A lot of people do consider it rude when you question what someone else says their sexual orientation is. Sort of like people who say "you'll change your mind about having kids". I think your message was intended as "Do realise you don't have to put yourself in a box", but some people read it as "You're wrong about what you're attracted to".

  • [-]
  • Super_Frez
  • 3 Points
  • 17:59:02, 16 May

Just out of curiosity, what was the thread?

  • [-]
  • albatrawesome
  • 3 Points
  • 18:35:55, 16 May

http://www.reddit.com/r/TwoXChromosomes/comments/25oc17/if22hadsexwithawomanforthefirsttime/

  • [-]
  • ToTallyNikki
  • 9 Points
  • 20:31:22, 16 May

Honestly your rule is a deal killer, but here is what I would do, and the Reddit admins would need to help.

Create a new subreddit maybe 2xDiscussion or something.
Load it with the original 175k subscribers from backup data of 2x.
Dump the original mods, and let the users elect new ones, as a large part of the userbase has lost faith in the original mods because of the way this was handled.

Then just let both communities grow and prosper as they may.

  • [-]
  • Patissiere
  • 12 Points
  • 17:48:33, 16 May

First of all, what I would do is talk to the mod team and find out what they want to do with the subreddit. It's very important that the team has a unified goal in mind.

Once that is settled, i would start by hiring some new mods, from all different timezones that share this common goal. This is a sub for women's perspectives.

And then, I would follow the followng process - warn, tag, ban, permaban. Toolbox has given us a beautiful tool to keep track of people who your team has warned, banned, and permabanned.

The reason I would go this route instead of straight up banning is mostly because i feel everyone deserves a chance to be educated. Since this is a default, people will be pouring in that need to be taught how to act if they want to participate in the subreddit. This happens everywhere.

As for day-to-day modding, as much derailing as we could find? Gone. Apologia? Gone.

I would also rework the rules and clarify many of the things set out so that the larger userbase has clearly defined boundaries. These are lines you DO NOT cross, or you will find yourself banned.

It takes a moderator much less time to ban you than it does for you to make a new account. :)

  • [-]
  • hermithome
  • 8 Points
  • 17:59:05, 16 May

Well, but that's the thing, the mod teams current vision for the sub is clearly very different from the vision a lot of us have. They're fulfilling their vision, but not ours.

  • [-]
  • Patissiere
  • 3 Points
  • 18:11:28, 16 May

Quite. And that's where community feedback comes in. Any good mod team will ask for community input at various intervals.

It may well have been that the mods weren't allowed to tell anyone that they were asked to be a default. And that could have hindered asking for opinions on the subject.

But 2x has had a problem for the longest time with talking to their community. This is not healthy. It seems like they're more focused on quantity of users over quality of a community.

  • [-]
  • hermithome
  • 5 Points
  • 18:18:32, 16 May

They weren't allowed to ask or tell the community in advance. But honestly, the issues preceded defaulting. They listed misandry on their sidebar way before that, and they never banned for tone-policing or mansplaining or low level trolling.

  • [-]
  • Patissiere
  • 4 Points
  • 18:19:40, 16 May

I left twox once before, and came back because of that. The ship needs to be tightened up.

  • [-]
  • hermithome
  • 3 Points
  • 18:23:53, 16 May

Came back because of what? Defaulting?

  • [-]
  • Patissiere
  • 2 Points
  • 18:34:41, 16 May

well, this was my third or fourth time coming back. i lost count.

  • [-]
  • mimigrape
  • 5 Points
  • 00:24:44, 17 May

I've got an idea.

When a person either first goes to 2XC or clicks a link/post from there, they are instead directed to a page that has a list of definitions/helpful links for information about the topics that come up. Have feminism, misogyny, misandry, rape, rape culture, sexual assault, MRA, etc. be available with quick easy to read definitions (this might be harder for some parts). For ones like feminism, have a note saying there is no one brand of feminism, but here is what some common themes are in it.

This would give users access to information before blindly going about into threads they don't have a clue are about. It also will help the mods find the people who don't read this information and either warn them to read them or ban them for not following the rules.

  • [-]
  • pillow_kitty
  • 7 Points
  • 16:59:40, 16 May

I strolled in like "only one answer lol!" And then read the first sentence of your post, and was like, "okay this is harder than I thought".

I'd say having an aggressive angry red bar that shows up when you try to post that says "THIS IS A SAFE SPACE FOR WOMEN" would be nice. In /r/changemyview they have one, and I think it dissuades a lot of shitposters. At least rape apologists would know the moment they tried to post that THEY ARE IN THE WRONG for fucking up the women's safe space.

  • [-]
  • MoonlightOnVermont
  • 7 Points
  • 18:06:55, 16 May

Make passing a Feminism 101 quiz mandatory for posting.

  • [-]
  • meldolphin
  • 1 Points
  • 04:17:09, 18 May

Oof I dunno about that one. Would it be about factual information or opinions? Considering how divided the feminist community is on so many issues... Or did you mean it like "what are the various historical movements" or "what are some different feminist organizations and their views"?

  • [-]
  • MoonlightOnVermont
  • 3 Points
  • 13:49:29, 18 May

Oh I just meant very general info. Like: what does this view represent? Or, when someone is talking about this, what do they mean? Just super basic. I mean, I may have been half kidding when I posted this... don't know even know if this would be feasible.

  • [-]
  • meldolphin
  • 3 Points
  • 16:51:07, 18 May

That actually doesn't sound too bad. Someone suggested making a vocab list that people had to read in order to post. Obviously we're limited to whatever functions reddit can implement.

  • [-]
  • MoonlightOnVermont
  • 2 Points
  • 21:24:09, 18 May

Something like this could have the benefit of: 1.) maybe being informative and 2.) putting a speed bump for trolls

More mods and tagging are probably necessary, but this seems like a pretty good automated solution.

  • [-]
  • dream6601
  • 11 Points
  • 17:13:12, 16 May

If I were evil dictator... I'd fix it by completely breaking the nature of reddit.

I'd keep it a default, I'd encourage it to stay on the front page more often even... but I'd make a very simple vetting process where you declare yourself to be a woman to join, and only members can comment, and only member can vote on comments and posts.

And then I'd ban anyone who fucked up. To me the biggest problem is men shaping what gets voted up or down.

EDIT: I of all people as a trans woman shouldn't forget about non-binary people, but I did, and for that I'm sorry, it was dumb. Just one of the reasons I should never be elected dictator, notice I did say I would be an evil dictator. I could revise my rule to "must declare yourself to not be a man" though there are issues there. My goal would be to simply to make the hivemind of the reddit majority which is cisgender, white, straight male, to stop voting in women's spaces. I just don't know how to test for hivemind.

  • [-]
  • Personage1
  • 5 Points
  • 18:47:46, 16 May

See my idea was that it's not 2X that needs to be fixed, but rather reddit in general.

  • [-]
  • dream6601
  • 3 Points
  • 19:03:20, 16 May

Exactly which is the only thing I like about 2x being a default, I want the hivemind exposed to women's issues, and by that I mean actual things women think and feel and experience.

I just hate that the hivemind takes what you show it, and turns it into more hivemind, it's like a virus.

  • [-]
  • letsgetknockedup
  • 7 Points
  • 17:41:13, 16 May

But what about the LGBT folks who frequent 2x (or used to) because it (was) is a safe place for them? Not all of them identify as female.

Similarly, some people don't identify with any gender, so what about those folks?

I get where you're coming from, but I don't think it's as simple as "women only". That wouldn't really fix the problem, but it'd exclude a lot of people who were previously welcome, simply based on the gender they identify with.

  • [-]
  • dream6601
  • 4 Points
  • 18:39:04, 16 May

Thank you for calling me out on that...I was dumb, please see my edit.

  • [-]
  • letsgetknockedup
  • 6 Points
  • 18:53:11, 16 May

Nah, you're not dumb, you're passionate about something that's pissing all of us off. We all have times when things come out not quite as we'd intended. I am a fine example of this! I am constantly meaning one thing in my head, and saying another. =)

I agree, by the way. If only there were a simple way to exclude the asshats. It's too bad they're not easier to identify. ;)

  • [-]
  • dream6601
  • 4 Points
  • 19:05:38, 16 May

My experiences at work, with friends, and OMG dating would be sooo much nicer if I had an asshat detector.

  • [-]
  • Darlli
  • 6 Points
  • 16:54:10, 16 May

More moderation. Not necessarily banning people for the shitty and ignorant opinions, but more support for those who wish to respond to the shitty and ignorant opinions.. and perhaps moderators who have enough time on their hands to join in with responding to shitty and ignorant opinions.

Then again I don't really know what 2X is like now. I left before it become default, but if it's anything like I remember (or worse) then I'd do this.

  • [-]
  • box-of-stars
  • 6 Points
  • 20:04:23, 16 May

Get rid of the downvote button in comments. If a post disobeys 2xc's rules then report it and move on. Down voting should not be used to disagree with a comment.

  • [-]
  • StrawberryTea
  • 5 Points
  • 23:39:30, 16 May

While I agree with your point about the downvote is not a disagree button, I feel like with this suggestion it is always important to note that there isn't - to my knowledge - any way to fully get rid of the downvote button. I'm on subs that have disabled it, but you can still easily downvote by using phone apps or simply by unclicking the "use subreddit style" box. It stops or delays some downvotes, but it isn't entirely preventative.

  • [-]
  • nukefudge
  • 3 Points
  • 18:20:42, 16 May

oi, your "One Rule" is totally cheating! ;P because seriously, that's all there is to it. can't change the world, can change sub settings.

  • [-]
  • darwin2500
  • 1 Points
  • 00:01:54, 17 May

Something I've suggested be a feature for all subreddits: Subscribers can hit a button to only see upvotes and comments made by other subscribers, effectively filtering out the noise from being a default and showing what the sub would be like if it were not a default.

  • [-]
  • jacalata
  • 3 Points
  • 02:02:48, 17 May

You'd probably have to also cut comments made by subscribers in response to non-subscribers, or it'd be a very disjointed. That's a kind of neat idea though.