It's been two weeks since TwoX became a default... (self.TwoXChromosomes)

TwoXChromosomes

1037 ups - 433 downs = 604 votes

So, it’s been two weeks since TwoX became a default. We were asked to please just give it some time. The trolling will stop. The mansplaining will stop. The jerks constantly playing devil's advocate and arguing for the sake of arguing will stop. But it hasn’t.

Yes, the mods do a very good job of removing abusive posts. But, often times it’s not quick enough. By the time these posts are removed, they’ve been seen by someone. And since this is supposed to be a safe haven for women, who are often in an emotionally vulnerable place, once the vitriol has been read, the damage cannot be undone.

I love TwoX. In the two years since I’ve been a redditor, TwoX has been a huge support system for me. It’s a place where I can air my grievances, ask for advice, share my stories and provide support to other women who need it. It was a breath of fresh air, a break from male-central that is the rest of Reddit.

But I just can’t do it anymore. In the two weeks since it’s become a default, I’ve gotten PMs telling me that I should stop “lying” about being raped, because “you know you liked it”. That I’m going to hell for having an abortion. That my inability to carry a child is punishment for being such a “stupid cunt.” Even after posting harmless, non-inflammatory comments. And I’m just one user.

And to all the people bitching about having a “woman’s sub” as a default, I think you're missing something. You ask why there’s no “male equivalent” as a default? It’s because YOU DON’T NEED ONE. All of Reddit is a boy’s club. Don’t believe me? Observe the front page for a few days. Better yet, go watch /r/all. Every single day posts about blowjobs, boobs, attractive women, and being “friendzoned” make it to the front/all. Not to mention the circlejerks about false rape accusations. How often do the female equivalent of these issues get any attention (cunnilingus, naked, attractive men, being “fuck-buddy zoned”)? Rarely. At least, until TwoX became a default anyway. One post about period poops makes it to the front page and all the men lose their minds. That’s why we need this place.

Thank you for everything TwoX. As much as I hate to do it, I think taking a break from Reddit for awhile will do me some good. Hopefully when I come back TwoX will be the awesome, supportive sub that it used to be, sans trolls.

560 comments submitted at 17:12:30 on May 23, 2014 by throwmeaway070605

  • [-]
  • Deimorz
  • 126 Points
  • 22:47:39, 23 May

Hi, 2XC. Since this thread's getting a fair amount of attention, I'd just like to take this opportunity to explain a few things around the situation from an admin perspective that I think it's useful for people to keep in mind as this topic continues to come up.

I mostly just want to urge people to not take everything at face value. There are a lot of people that seem quite invested in trying to get the mods to remove this subreddit from the defaults, and unfortunately that means that they're willing to try to cheat, lie, and do various other unsavory things to influence this decision.

For example, the OP of this thread was using at least 5 alternate accounts to attempt to tilt things in here, including upvoting their own submission and supportive comments (and they've now been banned from the site for that). There's generally just a great deal of attempted manipulation going on around the topic of 2XC being a default, between people attempting to manipulate votes, using multiple accounts to post comments supportive of their side, organized groups brigading relevant posts, etc. Some people have even been performing what's often referred to as a "false flag", where even though they're actually normally a contributing member of the subreddit, they've been creating alt accounts to make or upvote harassing comments/messages in order to make that issue seem more prevalent than it actually is.

And on the topic of harassing PMs, one of the most frustrating aspects of the situation from our perspective is that there's been a significant amount of lying on this end. We've received quite a few reports about users who have claimed to have received a large amount of harassment, but when we investigate we find that they've often never received any PMs at all, or only one message when they claim to have received many. Some people have even gone so far as creating alts to PM themselves with, so that they can take screenshots for "proof".

I'm certainly not trying to say that there hasn't been any harassment, because some definitely has actually occurred (and please report it to us by sending a modmail to /r/reddit.com if it happens to you). But between the various outside groups trying quite hard to push 2XC out, the false flags, and the lying, please take all claims about it with a large grain of salt.

Just to be clear though, we'll be perfectly happy with whatever decision the subreddit eventually makes about whether to remain a default or not. We definitely like having it as a default (which is why we asked the mods if we could include it), but if they decide they've changed their mind, that's great as well. I'd just really like to see that the decision is made honestly, instead of as a result of all the manipulation going on around it.

  • [-]
  • soggywaffles3
  • 30 Points
  • 00:31:19, 24 May

Can you please create a way for users to disable the PM function? This would help solve a lot of problems.

  • [-]
  • Loztblaz
  • 50 Points
  • 23:34:13, 23 May

>But between the various outside groups trying quite hard to push 2XC out, the false flags, and the lying, please take all claims about it with a large grain of salt.

Since you clearly have a much better view of this information than others, saying "significant amount of lying" and "great deal of attempted manipulation", can you clarify the percentages between lies and truth? Stating that "some" harassment has occurred but a "significant" amount of lying is happening provides a lot of cover for the harassers and makes it even harder for people to feel like they can speak out about it.

  • [-]
  • cupcake1713
  • 28 Points
  • 23:41:02, 23 May

Out of all of the reports that other people have sent our way (generally it is other users reporting things to us on someone else's behalf), I'd say that maybe only two to four have been legit. It's entirely possible that there are other legitimate instances out there, but they aren't being reported to us. If you (or anyone else) comes across any instances of people complaining that they've received harassing PMs please do send it our way at /r/reddit.com modmail!

  • [-]
  • Sleipnoir
  • 17 Points
  • 03:20:50, 24 May

I received a PM calling me a retard slut after posting in 2x. Are you including that in the 4 you mention? I pressed report from the inbox screen. It looks like the account is still active so...just wondering what happened as a result of me pressing report.

The pm is still in my messages inbox if you need to see it

  • [-]
  • cupcake1713
  • 20 Points
  • 03:32:20, 24 May

That person was indeed banned, they sent quite a few people nasty PMs.

  • [-]
  • Sleipnoir
  • 7 Points
  • 03:36:40, 24 May

Okay that's good to hear. Thank you very much! Perhaps it is just a couple of jerks who are pming everyone.

  • [-]
  • zaurefirem
  • 1 Points
  • 14:02:34, 24 May

What about the person who told me they know where I live and they were going to rape me?

I really think that you're discounting a lot of legitimate reports. I've reported three harassing pms, and you've said that what, 2-4 are legitimate? So you're discounting real harassment and calling it drama. Way to fucking go.

  • [-]
  • cupcake1713
  • 1 Points
  • 14:03:56, 24 May

Did you report it to /r/reddit.com?

  • [-]
  • zaurefirem
  • 1 Points
  • 14:06:39, 24 May

I reported from my inbox all three times.

  • [-]
  • cupcake1713
  • 1 Points
  • 14:09:15, 24 May

Please report things directly to /r/reddit.com so they can be actioned faster.

  • [-]
  • zaurefirem
  • 1 Points
  • 14:21:36, 24 May

So why does the report from inbox system exist then? It removes the messages from inbox so I don't have copies of any of them, but I screencapped two of them before reporting.

  • [-]
  • Loztblaz
  • 32 Points
  • 00:13:47, 24 May

Thanks for the response.

Selecting only out of what is received in reports may be one of the reasons why you're seeing that sort of rate. In this very thread there are people talking about their experiences with receiving harassing PMs, but I wouldn't report those posts to administrators because I don't know if those posters would want to get involved like that. They also may not report them if they feel that it wouldn't be taken care of, which I can totally understand if an admin uses nebulous language to describe how many people are lying about harassment, especially if the motivation for the people lying/exaggerating isn't known.

edit:

Uh, speaking of wondering if a PM is real, is this? Because if so, that means it's bannable to send yourself rape threats to create "drama", but actual ones aren't.

  • [-]
  • Jimmy440
  • 1 Points
  • 13:33:17, 24 May

> Because if so, that means it's bannable to send yourself rape threats to create "drama", but actual ones aren't.

That's technically true, but only because the bannable offense is sending anything to yourself to create drama, not rape threats specifically.

Anyway, I find it hard to believe that rape threats aren't bannable.

  • [-]
  • ClittyLitter
  • 6 Points
  • 00:06:01, 24 May

...What if the 2XC haters are making false reports to try and undermine our credibility? Could that happen? How is the legitimacy of reports determined?

  • [-]
  • cupcake1713
  • 10 Points
  • 00:09:10, 24 May

We're pretty good at telling who is a normal user and who is trying to stir up drama.

  • [-]
  • ClittyLitter
  • 13 Points
  • 00:26:33, 24 May

My point is that yes, there are supporters of 2XC who wish to be taken off default, but that there are OTHER people who are against 2XC who want the same thing.

I just think it's unfair that the issue has been addressed with the assumption that the false-reporters are all 2XC supporters who are playing dirty, when it seems reasonable to me that there could be more to it than that.

Y'all are publicly addressing the supporters of 2XC as a whole, telling US that WE need to keep our noses clean, while the banning and regulation of aggressive commenters/messagers is done individually and without public recognition.

If you feel that admin comments in this thread are apropos, why not make your own post, addressing the detractors of 2XC as well as the supporters? Admin posts are taken pretty seriously.

  • [-]
  • ifiasco
  • 5 Points
  • 07:49:14, 24 May

> I just think it's unfair that the issue has been addressed with the assumption that the false-reporters are all 2XC supporters who are playing dirty, when it seems reasonable to me that there could be more to it than that. >

Correct me if I'm wrong but that's not what cupcake or deimorz said (I'm not sure if I 100% understand what you're saying overall). They just said a high number of reports are coming from users who are falsely reporting, or forging, or creating fake accounts. They didn't say "the false-reporters are all 2xc supporters who are playing dirty", and they didn't imply that either.

Cupcake said 2-4 reports submitted were real. For all we know they could have gotten 5 reports, but I doubt they would have the motive to twist the results like that. She also didn't dismiss the fact that there are countless instances not being reported.

For the admins, I assume they have enough control to: look up a user's PMs to see how much harassment they're getting/giving; what IP address the alleged harassers are posting from, etc.

In cases like in the OP of this thread, where Deimorz said the OP was using 5 throwaways: if the admins find 5 accounts which all share the same IP address, and all upvote the same comments, it becomes easy to tell.

It's just sad to find out that a good enough portion of the hate in this sub is coming from pre-existing users trying to manipulate other users to get their way.

As for making an official admin post, while I can only speculate, I'm sure there are more advantages to holding off public appearances and dealing with the actual situation rather than getting publicly and directly involved. This tends to be the admins' approach throughout all subreddits and isn't particular to 2xc.

  • [-]
  • Shaper_pmp
  • 1 Points
  • 13:05:43, 24 May

>supporters of 2XC who wish to be taken off default, but that there are OTHER people who are against 2XC who want the same thing

And with the kind of access an admin has, it would be truly trivial to tell the difference. For example, you can look at how long they've been subscribed to 2XC, the absolute (or average-per-comment) karma they've received specifically from posting in 2XC, etc, etc. You could easily make it even more accurate by ignoring karma/posts since 2XC went default.

This is not a remotely difficult problem given access to the kind of information the admins have about users - it's the kind of problem even a half-decent developer could solve in their sleep. You could practically write a stored procedure in the database called "isuseralegitsubreddit_member" and just plug in the name of users and subreddits to get an instant "yes/no" answer... and that's without even trying to get clever (like analysing who's *given* them those upvotes, where they're subscribed to and what their standing is in 2XC and those other communities, etc, etc, etc).

I can't speak to why a couple of paragraphs of Deimorz's comment seemed somewhat specific to 2XC users - perhaps it's some sign of inherent bias, or perhaps it's because they genuinely are seeing a lot more false-flag claims than legitimate ones... or simply because they're taking to 2XCers, in 2XC, so there isn't really a lot of point specifically addressing the MRA agitator side of things in this comment because the relevant users would obviously never see it.

The point remains that - in addition to plenty of legitimate trolls and assholes - we apparently have a serious problem in the community with disingenuous shitheads faking abuse and harassment because they think it'll help get 2XC un-defaulted again.

We already knew about the creepy/misogynist assholes, but this other side of it is completely new to the community, and it's something we need to think very, very carefully about and take into account when forming impressions of the current situation in 2XC.

It doesn't come naturally to us in 2XC to be sceptical of claimed victims of abuse or take harassment claims with a pinch of salt. However, now we know for absolute certain that at least some people are flat-out lying for attention or because they think it'll help their agenda (including, remember, the OP of this very thread), it behoves us as reasonable people to take it into account instead of instantly and reflexively dismissing it because it doesn't jibe well with our existing biases and prejudices.

  • [-]
  • IntrinsicSurgeon
  • -9 Points
  • 02:22:17, 24 May

Honestly, I can't imagine how they have any actual proof. They seem to just be speculating and making assumptions. If they have solid proof then, like you said, they need to make their own post addressing it instead of making a comment claiming that people are lying without any proof whatsoever.

  • [-]
  • gingeralefiend
  • 15 Points
  • 03:18:08, 24 May

You know about things like cookie tracking and IP addresses, right? Everything you do online is tracked and the admins of the site are the ones who can see that.

  • [-]
  • IntrinsicSurgeon
  • -6 Points
  • 02:19:12, 24 May

So, speculation is the proof?

  • [-]
  • codeverity
  • 18 Points
  • 01:15:43, 24 May

>For example, the OP of this thread was using at least 5 alternate accounts to attempt to tilt things in here, including upvoting their own submission and supportive comments (and they've now been banned from the site for that).

Wow. That's really disappointing. :/

  • [-]
  • Shaper_pmp
  • 1 Points
  • 13:20:46, 24 May

Indeed - nothing harms a cause like a false-flag operation that gets exposed, because it inherently throws doubt on every legitimate attack that side suffers, costing them support and severely weakening the entire side's claim to the moral high ground.

What a fucking idiot the OP was to pull lying, disingenuous, dishonest shit like that. They've just harmed their own side and handed a propaganda victory to every pro-default, anti-2XC and pro-MRA/RedPill group on reddit.

Fucking stupid.

  • [-]
  • ablecakes
  • 7 Points
  • 01:03:27, 24 May

Wooooow.

How do you check this stuff? Is there a matrix-like panel that shows you everything that's going on? I'm kinda curious now.

  • [-]
  • PheonixManrod
  • 8 Points
  • 02:28:39, 24 May

The IP address would be the same of all the accounts.

  • [-]
  • FatStig
  • 10 Points
  • 03:01:24, 24 May

Naive. More likely cookie tracking. I doubt most if these sorts of people are savvy enough to have to resort to tracking ip's.

  • [-]
  • PheonixManrod
  • 5 Points
  • 03:09:48, 24 May

I took the question as being asked to the mod.

  • [-]
  • mightyflynn
  • 22 Points
  • 00:14:19, 24 May

> the OP of this thread was using at least 5 alternate accounts to attempt to tilt things in here, including upvoting their own submission

Holy shit.

  • [-]
  • AlenaBrolxFlami
  • 5 Points
  • 08:50:36, 24 May

Wow.

  • [-]
  • Throwaway__woman
  • 16 Points
  • 04:10:00, 24 May

So what about things like this?

  • [-]
  • heatheranne
  • 4 Points
  • 07:14:31, 24 May

Harassing comments should be reported. They are taken care of at the subreddit level.

  • [-]
  • Throwaway__woman
  • 7 Points
  • 07:24:53, 24 May

Admins are inferring that they will actually deal with it. Nothing about subreddits. From the admin's post above:

> I'm certainly not trying to say that there hasn't been any harassment, because some definitely has actually occurred (and please report it to us by sending a modmail to /r/reddit.com if it happens to you).

There is little point in reporting it to reddit.com if they don't actually do anything. The screenshot shows an admin saying outright that they don't ban for such things.

  • [-]
  • heatheranne
  • 8 Points
  • 07:29:03, 24 May

Mail harassment and users following you around harassing you are things that need reported to the admins. They do react to users sending PMs, and users following you around reddit.

Troll comments and rude comments should be reported using the link underneath them so they can be removed at the subreddit level. We do remove and ban abusive users and trolls from TwoX.

  • [-]
  • Throwaway__woman
  • 4 Points
  • 09:29:23, 24 May

>We do remove and ban abusive users and trolls from TwoX.

No, I get that. The mods here have been on top of it, and prompt. What is up doesn't stay up for long.

The issue is that cupcake clearly states that reddit admins won't do anything about rape threats - in their words:

>Sorry, but we don't really ban for rape threats.

So if you're telling users to report PMs to admins, and the admins just shrug and do nothing, then that's really a way for the corporation to silence people who would complain and shrug them off in private, rather than public.

  • [-]
  • heatheranne
  • 7 Points
  • 09:31:58, 24 May

Abusive PMs get dealt with, but people don't get banned for shitty abusive comments. This is the difference. Your rape threat was a comment, not a PM.

  • [-]
  • Throwaway__woman
  • 1 Points
  • 09:41:43, 24 May

It's not my rape threat - I read a post about a user who quit reddit due to it. Admins haven't actually replied to my post about it, so it's really speculation on whether they will ban those who threaten rape by PM if they won't ban those who threaten rape on reddit threads.

According to another post here (where my comment seems to have been deleted, and I haven't heard back from mods why) the admins have only received 4 reports. So if they skip over rape threats as no big deal, users should know exactly what they will be protected from.

As a rape survivor, I would certainly like to know if the administration gives a shit, or if they're just going to fob me off in private where it can't embarrass them.

  • [-]
  • heatheranne
  • 4 Points
  • 09:46:35, 24 May

> That person was indeed banned, they sent quite a few people nasty PMs.

This is a quote from an admin higher up in this thread, confirmation that PM abusers do actually get banned.

  • [-]
  • Throwaway__woman
  • -2 Points
  • 10:06:23, 24 May

That's not exactly illuminating. Was it for rape threats, or did the person sending nasty PMs do something else? Is it only some admins that will ban for bad behavior?

It's a really simple question, that no admin has answered yet. After a few days, no answer will be answer enough. While I appreciate you telling me what the admins are saying publicly, I would really like to know what their standards actually are. Do they ban for rape threats, or are rape survivors on their own?

  • [-]
  • LittleMissP
  • 1 Points
  • 09:45:25, 24 May

4 legit reports, not 4 reports in total.

  • [-]
  • Throwaway__woman
  • -1 Points
  • 10:02:01, 24 May

Which is why it's important to know what their standards are.

  • [-]
  • KamensPoltergeist
  • -2 Points
  • 09:57:15, 24 May

The reality is that the admins have indicated that rape threats are okay as long as they're a public comment. And that's despite the fact that it's a criminal offence to make threats of violence. Charming place.

  • [-]
  • Throwaway__woman
  • -2 Points
  • 10:07:55, 24 May

I suppose the people who threaten rape are good for revenue, so they matter more.

  • [-]
  • Raudskeggr
  • 6 Points
  • 05:06:18, 24 May

While these tactics aren't new to Reddit (or the internet) in general (amazing what lengths some people will go to to "win" at internet), it is exceptionally refreshing to see an Admin shedding some light on such unethical practices.

What I fail to understand is why people wouldn't want more good, contributing users. Why would someone fabricate harassment where none exists (for that individual) just to keep people out of a subreddit? It's truly insane.

  • [-]
  • PastaOfMuppets
  • 62 Points
  • 23:20:42, 23 May

I don't like this response. This just puts Reddit and its rules above the livelihood of the ladies here that do get creepy, abusive, threatening and generally upsetting PMs. You can't seriously be implying that the majority of these reports are false flags, so that it calls into question the legitimacy of every single report. There definitely are creepy motherfuckers on this website, and they definitely do send creepy PMs. Just because some people lie about it shouldn't mean that those legitimate cases get swept under the carpet with the false ones.

  • [-]
  • Esmyweatherwax
  • 18 Points
  • 23:39:31, 23 May

I don't see anything about them sweeping real attacks under the rug. It sounds as though they take a thorough look at any reports of harassment which I find reassuring.

  • [-]
  • SIR_FURT_WIGGLEPANTS
  • 35 Points
  • 23:34:57, 23 May

It's not implied when the admin has proof... I'm not trying to discredit the victims here but there is legitimate proof that it's being over blown past what it actually is.

  • [-]
  • PastaOfMuppets
  • 15 Points
  • 23:45:04, 23 May

I meant they're implying that the number of illegitimate reports is so high that they have to be critically dismissive of every report that happens, legitimate or not.

The admin made this post because of who the OP is, and does almost nothing to acknowledge the actual victims.

  • [-]
  • ifiasco
  • 15 Points
  • 07:59:35, 24 May

> I meant they're implying that the number of illegitimate reports is so high that they have to be critically dismissive of every report that happens, legitimate or not.

When did they say that? Neither admin said anything about their taking an attitude where they are critically dismissive of the reports. Deimorz did say to be skeptical about what's happening (s/he said take it with a grain of salt), but skeptical != dismissive. Taking these posts with a grain of salt is also not dismissive.

I also didn't get the impression from either post that the number of illegitimate reports was that high, just that it was a considerable amount. Putting it that way is kind of exaggerating what they've said. They also didn't rule out the likelihood of abuse happening that isn't reported.

  • [-]
  • PastaOfMuppets
  • -4 Points
  • 10:43:31, 24 May

It's at least dismissive because of how much effort the admin went into explaining why OP shouldn't be trusted vs. explaining what they're doing about harassment. It just shows where their priorities lie.

  • [-]
  • Shaper_pmp
  • 1 Points
  • 13:33:46, 24 May

We already know they ban people for vote-manipulation and brigading and serious harassment - that's not news to anyone.

We did not know that a non-trivial proportion of reported harassment that the admins see are fake, and it's very, very important that we know this so that we aren't mislead into over-estimating the degree of the problem by people like the OP who are provably lying to the community to push their own agenda.

Deimorz's comment was an informative post about one side of the issue that nobody in the community knew about, not a scrupulously balanced and complete summary of the entire issue... and with respect it was abundantly clear from his comment that that was the point of it.

Note also that he didn't say everyone who claimed harassment was lying - just that plenty were exaggerating one comment into "several", and a small minority were even going so far as to stage false-flag attacks or use alts to manipulate public perception and steer discussion.

  • [-]
  • woopwooppoowpoow
  • -1 Points
  • 06:59:35, 24 May

Yeah, where? i would like to actually see the proof. Not just accusations that the majority of dissapointment with twox comes from conspiracy.

  • [-]
  • SIR_FURT_WIGGLEPANTS
  • 1 Points
  • 14:14:48, 24 May

How is an admin making an official statement not proof?

  • [-]
  • Crolleen
  • 27 Points
  • 23:39:44, 23 May

Actually the mod did say there are legitimate reports and that they are being followed up and posted where to file those reports.

The people lying and using multiple accounts are making all of you look bad and also making it harder for REAL complaints to be seen and heard.

There are rules for a reason and trying to manipulate those to your favour and lying about harassment is about as bad as sending a creepy pm.

It's like a reddit rape culture. When people lie it makes everyone question the integrity of someone telling the truth. Stop crying wolf and maybe something will be done.

  • [-]
  • fitman14
  • 2 Points
  • 02:12:02, 24 May

but what if I enjoy trying to make myself look like a victim? It's a fun game I like to play.

  • [-]
  • Raudskeggr
  • 4 Points
  • 05:09:43, 24 May

It's unfortunate that you're being downvoted for this comment. This is, in some ways, the most obnoxious characteristic of a subreddit like this; the intense and all-pervasive attitude that their "street cred" depends on one's claim to victimhood.

It is harmful, overall...not only does it sidetrack discussion, alienate and polarize people, but it also leads to abuses like those mentioned by Deimorz.

  • [-]
  • Shaper_pmp
  • 1 Points
  • 13:41:31, 24 May

He's being downvoted because it doesn't really add anything to the conversation - it's just a cheap jab that doesn't actually address the problem, describe it in any detail, say anything interesting about it or suggest any solutions to it.

People so fanatical and zealous that they'll stage false-flag attacks or vote-manipulate with alt accounts are disingenuous shits and fucking idiots, and yes, there are even a minority of people who find it so empowering to play the victim that they'll grab any opportunity to do so, even to the extent of faking a justification themselves.

However, everyone with half a brain already realises these people are fucking asshats, and they are only a small minority even of the people suffering harassment, let alone the entire 2XC community.

  • [-]
  • Jeepski1
  • 1 Points
  • 14:15:51, 24 May

I wish that I was able to clearly type out something like this. You explain it perfectly, I would never get the wording right.

  • [-]
  • Txmedic
  • 1 Points
  • 14:11:58, 24 May

It clearly states that they take the harassment of users seriously and urges those who have/are being harassed to send a modmail message to /r/reddit to let them know about it. They can't do anything unless it is reported to them. So if anyone is receiving those types of messages please let them know!

  • [-]
  • DarkMatter944
  • 9 Points
  • 02:21:18, 24 May

You shouldn't be mad at his response which is only rational. You should be disgusted with the women who make false claims about abuse and thus devalue those whose claims are legit. Also he didn't say anything about sweeping legitimate claims under the rug but according to cupcake only 2 have actually been legitimate.

  • [-]
  • ifiasco
  • 5 Points
  • 07:28:29, 24 May

>one of the most frustrating aspects of the situation from our perspective is that there's been a significant amount of lying on this end. We've received quite a few reports about users who have claimed to have received a large amount of harassment, but when we investigate we find that they've often never received any PMs at all, or only one message when they claim to have received many. Some people have even gone so far as creating alts to PM themselves with, so that they can take screenshots for "proof".

Holy shit. TRP and MRA creeps would have a field day if they bothered to read far enough down this thread...

All that aside, I wish more people could see this so users would know what's going on. It's really sad when you have people going this far to lie and cheat just to keep things going their way. Totally inconsiderate of everyone else, and a really backhanded way of manipulating the sub, the readers, and the participants.

  • [-]
  • redtaboo
  • 17 Points
  • 00:12:54, 24 May

Thank you and cupcake for posting here about this, we've been doing our best to weed the legitimate criticisms and complaints from our community and we've had our suspicions about some of the posts we've seen.

It's heartening to know that some of our suspicions were correct, though the fact that some from our community may have participated in false flagging by sending shitty PM's to some of the women here or upvoting harassing comments instead of reporting them is very disappointing to me. It doesn't make sense to me since the largest argument against us being a default is that it makes this space less safe, so you participate in making it less safe by threatening people?

To address any concerns I'm seeing in response to you that this means there are no legitimate complaints, that's not what Deimorz said at all, just that we should question both where it's coming from and which groups are doing it and why.

We do still know there are legitimate concerns (as deimorz reiterated at the end of his comment) and that the number of shitty PM's may have gone up.. though it's important to note here that those are not a new thing here. We've always been known to the dedicated trolls (and wider reddit) and been a target of theirs. At different times different groups have targeted us ever since the day we were created, trolls and shitty PM's are not a new thing here.

We still are reading the complaints and taking them to heart as much as we can but we, like everyone should, will continue to have that grain of salt in mind going forward.

  • [-]
  • ClittyLitter
  • 14 Points
  • 00:11:11, 24 May

> For example, the OP of this thread was using at least 5 alternate accounts to attempt to tilt things in here, including upvoting their own submission and supportive comments (and they've now been banned from the site for that).

I thought that was an old tradition here on Reddit. The power-users obviously do/have done this, but I don't remember such a swift and decisive action against them from admins. I thought y'all took a laissez-fair approach.

  • [-]
  • Deimorz
  • 18 Points
  • 00:29:22, 24 May

The tradition is more like people assuming that it obviously must be happening, despite having no actual evidence. And there are quite a few "power users" that have been banned for vote manipulation.

  • [-]
  • ClittyLitter
  • -10 Points
  • 02:28:53, 24 May

Fair enough. Then make you own post about the issue. It is strange to see admins show up to a post. It seems reactionary and sloppy. If false reporting is such a serious problem, be proactive an address the whole community instead of waggling fingers at us within this post.

  • [-]
  • PheonixManrod
  • 11 Points
  • 02:26:09, 24 May

> I thought that was an old tradition here on Reddit. The power-users obviously do/have done this, but I don't remember such a swift and decisive action against them from admins. I thought y'all took a laissez-fair approach.

This is basically the opposite of what happens around here. Vote rigging regularly gets banned. Look up the quickmeme scandal, an entire website was banned because of it.

  • [-]
  • jhatesu
  • 9 Points
  • 00:02:27, 24 May

I'm actually confused. If the sub so badly doesn't want to be defaulted, why is it? Is it hard to take it off the defaulted subs list or something?

  • [-]
  • MeghanAM
  • 9 Points
  • 00:07:04, 24 May

"The sub" isn't of one opinion. Some members who are against the default status are just very persistent.

  • [-]
  • hehehehehaa
  • 2 Points
  • 08:58:45, 24 May

It's a handful of liars stirring up shit. Like the op.

  • [-]
  • Shaper_pmp
  • 1 Points
  • 13:49:00, 24 May

Liars and attention-seekers aside, a large majority of the commenting user-base on 2XC are still emphatically against it because of what it's done (and is still doing) to the community.

The admins and 2XC are in favour of it because having 2XC as a default makes women more visible on reddit and will hopefully help to rein in some of the childish teenage-boys-clubhouse attitude that largely prevails on the rest of reddit, even at the cost of 2XC as a good community for women to feel safe in.

  • [-]
  • Velvetrose
  • 1 Points
  • 14:13:18, 24 May

THIS needs to be stickied to the top

  • [-]
  • blissfully_happy
  • 4 Points
  • 06:41:49, 24 May

> I'm certainly not trying to say that there hasn't been any harassment, because some definitely has actually occurred (and please report it to us by sending a modmail to /r/reddit.com if it happens to you[1] ).

Ha. Last year, I received a death threat threatening to kill me with a steamroller. The sender went so far as to doxx me on my fb account. I contacted the admins at reddit FOUR FUCKING TIMES, and nothing was done. I gave up, deleted my account and left reddit for awhile.

Reddit, as a whole, is not friendly towards women. I have no idea why the admins continue to insist that it's OUR fucking responsibility to change such a hostile culture via reporting (which, as stated, does NOTHING).

  • [-]
  • GreyhoundOne
  • 3 Points
  • 09:55:14, 24 May

/u/Deimorz,

I would be interested to know the ratio of "false flag" harassment reports to "legitimate" harassment reports.

I might be guilty of reading too much into your statement, but phrases like "quite a few" accounting for a "large amount" of harassment, and "not trying to say that there hasn't been any harassment" sort of make it sound like a considerably large percentage of these reports are fabricated. Are you talking about a sizable minority, a majority?

I understand you pretty much said you were not trying to be dismissive, but your overall tone does seem vaguely dismissive.

So what are the numbers of false reports vs. legitimate reports, to the best you know? I imagine this information would be fine to post, since you called out OP (appropriately so).

I think that the administration attempting to give a quantifiable breakdown of these items would be extremely beneficial to future discussion.

-Respectfully

  • [-]
  • sixandhishat
  • 10 Points
  • 23:31:50, 23 May

Nice. Protect the creeps to get more attention. Pretty sure that isn't what this sub is about.

  • [-]
  • Shaper_pmp
  • 1 Points
  • 13:53:34, 24 May

What protection? They're banning creeps for harassment and vote-manipulation.

They're just making us aware that our side isn't exactly whiter than white either, so we can be a little smarter and more discerning about what we take on faith simply because it flatters our preconceptions.

If you're arguing with empirical facts, you're in the wrong, by definition.

  • [-]
  • sixandhishat
  • 1 Points
  • 14:28:32, 24 May

I personally think that one message from a creep should be enough for people to complain about. Having had a look since this was a default sub there are a number of extremely abusive posts that, although they are removed reasonably quickly, the damage is already done.

  • [-]
  • Crolleen
  • 5 Points
  • 23:34:19, 23 May

Thank you for posting this. As a woman and a reddit user and not a 2X subscriber I can see both sides. I understand how the women in this sub viewed it as a safe haven and that most other casual users of reddit are sarcastic and argumentative and enjoy playing devils advocate which isn't what this subreddit is for. I do agree that it should be removed as a default, both for personal reasons (I REALLY don't enjoy seeing posts about period poo and gross baby stuff etc on my leisurely reddit browse. If I wanted that I could search for it) and for the reasons of well intentioned subscribers to this sub. They should have a place for support from other women without fear of ridicule.

But let me add this because as a woman I've been compelled to comment on a few posts I have seen. The women in this thread that I have encountered seem to me to be cliquish and unwilling to accept any opinion that may differ from their own. I have gotten some pretty rude and heated responses for simply stating a different and polite viewpoint or trying to look at things from another perspective to help the OP without being mean or sarcastic.

So, I think the women in this sub are their own worst enemies. The ones doing the things you've mentioned deserve each other and are better left to their private girls club where they can complain and shoo away pests with their mob mentality.

This was the wrong sub to represent women on reddit and I'm fully behind dropping it from default.

  • [-]
  • _TIXCY_
  • 14 Points
  • 02:11:29, 24 May

I've only ever gotten one creepy PM from this subreddit, and it was ironically from a post much like this one, and I reported it.

I think it should be removed as a default because I'm tired of the posts like this. I have yet to see all these tons of troll comments, or people getting harassed in here, and I really expected it to be something like the admins confirmed. I never see the trolls, I just see people talking about the trolls.

  • [-]
  • Crolleen
  • 8 Points
  • 02:46:00, 24 May

I'm glad more people think so. I was really terrified of the backlash I might get posting this here...

  • [-]
  • zaurefirem
  • 1 Points
  • 14:10:34, 24 May

I'm glad you haven't seen the trolls. The shit they post is nasty. But if you insist, go into a newer post and scroll to the bottom.

  • [-]
  • cider-drinker
  • 3 Points
  • 08:51:16, 24 May

Is there not a way for you to pin this comment to the top i really think more people should see this.

  • [-]
  • dreamingofjellyfish
  • 1 Points
  • 02:23:06, 24 May

> please take all claims about it with a large grain of salt.

All claims? That's a pretty solid slap in the face to anyone who's played by the rules while saying they're unhappy about the change or pointing out the ways 2X has changed. It also looks like an invite to disregard all dissenting voices,which IMO is what the mods have done anyway, so not sure that changes anything, but still - shitty message to send while calling for an honest decision.

  • [-]
  • Shaper_pmp
  • 1 Points
  • 14:00:21, 24 May

"Take with a grain of salt" does not mean "disbelieve" - it means reserve judgement and don't automatically believe 100% without any other evidence or corroboration. This is a sensible and prudent guideline on the net anyway, and goes double when there are known to be a minority of people actively exaggerating and lying about the issue.

Also, the correct idiom is actually "a pinch of salt" - a grain is a lot less than that, so while it might simply have been an error on Deimorz's part, they might actually have been trying to imply "the smallest possible" degree of scepticism - even less than someone would normally be advised to keep, but just more than "absolutely none whatsoever".

  • [-]
  • dreamingofjellyfish
  • 1 Points
  • 14:18:21, 24 May

Actually I've always heard the idiom as a "grain of salt", so I'd guess it's regional.

Regardless, my point was that it's asking people to be skeptical of only one side of an ongoing debate - the side that disagrees with admins & mods. While there's reason to be skeptical about any claim made on reddit, the justifications given by mods (and now admins) have conveniently, repeatedly mentioned the arguments that dismiss people who have complaints about the change (i.e. the people that disagree with them).

  • [-]
  • woopwooppoowpoow
  • -1 Points
  • 07:01:40, 24 May

You're making auite a big accusation here saying that the majority of trouble comes from dissenters. Care to post proof?

  • [-]
  • ikmkim
  • -1 Points
  • 07:30:35, 24 May

So a few people have resorted to dirty tactics. I don't really approve, but isn't that pretty much how reddit runs? Sounds like they're just fighting fire with fire

  • [-]
  • Shaper_pmp
  • 1 Points
  • 14:03:58, 24 May

Everyone thinks their cause is just.

The only way you know you're better than the bad guys is because you refuse to sink to their level.

If you sink to their level then you are as bad as them... and as an added bonus you also harm the perception and support of the rest of your side in the debate if/when awareness of your activities come out.

See: this very thread, for example.

  • [-]
  • xiic
  • -15 Points
  • 01:06:57, 24 May

Good, now go take care of /r/shitredditsays.

EDIT: I forgot, this place is SRSlite and the some of the reddit mods frequent that shithole.