I know its a weird question, but what is it like to be a hot girl? (self.AskReddit)

{AskReddit}

619 ups - 0 downs = 619 votes

As a pudgy 28 year old guy I have no clue as to what it might be like, I mean, do people treat you differently? What kinds of problems do you face? Are there things you experience that others don't? It just seems like there is an alternate parallel universe they exist in. I tried asking my partner, but she said she'd never known any different. I know there are tv shows about ditsy hot chicks, but there aren't any about intelligent hot chicks, so anyone care to enlighten me?

2060 comments submitted at 03:22:08 on Dec 14, 2010 by [deleted]

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 1289 Points
  • 04:04:58, 14 December

An honest answer, whether or not you want to believe me. I am on Reddit- I also am a "hot chick". I will not do anything to verify this, as I am a private person and the only real way would be to post pictures.

Your questions answered, specifically-

Do people treat you differently?

Yes, they treat me like they want to fuck me. It's okay. Sometimes it grosses me out. Sometimes it is flattering. I know this is horrible but I get offended if a guy DOESN'T check me out. It's all just a game of biology, and I'm a good specimen for breeding.

What kind of problems do you face?

You face people giving you attention you don't want. That sounds like no big deal unless you realize that about half the human population has weird relationship/personal space issues and it means that men make weird comments, even your relatives and your friends. It means that you're never allowed to forget what you look like, and that it is important that you do not change. The first words out of my dad's mouth when I see him are whether or not I look like I've been working out daily.

Intelligent hot chicks, and if they exist- They do. But they've learned to hide it. People will hate you for being attractive, unless they feel they are smarter than you. Then they feel better because they have a reason to look down on you. If you let on that you can compete mentally, then they really dislike you, to the point of pure mean-girl sort of stuff. Sometimes, if you do try to contribute on any level, people dismiss you immediately. Or they decide they want to try to fuck you more than before.

What it comes down to is that it is less about how attractive you are, and more about how others around you perceive it. I think that one thing very attractive girls never feel is really accepted. Because you're always trying to self-depreciate in one way or another, to make yourself seem less of a threat to other girls, less attractive to those you don't want to be attractive to, etc.

Is it worse, or better than being average? I'm not sure. I don't know who I would be without it, but at the same time, I wonder if anyone around me would like me if I didn't look this way. I find no joy in eating, in fact, I secretly hate food. I wish I could have a healthier relationship with it.

It lets you have very unhealthy romantic relationships. It's easy to ignore all other aspects and base it only off how you look. It's easy to not learn how to be a good person, or how to treat people the right way. It's easy to end up alone. It's easy to expect help from strangers for no reason. But dealing with rejection, if these things don't happen the way you want them to, is really, really hard. I guess it's just hard to face reality when you are used to not having to.

Long winded, yes. I apologize. I've had more than a decade to deal with these things, and sometimes I feel like I am behind other people because I relied on my looks for so long. I am petrified of getting old and unattractive. That's a big thing I am working through in therapy right now.

I really don't know what else to say. Let me know if you have other questions.

Oh, and as an edit- I know this wouldn't seem like a bad thing to guys, but I've been scarred repeatedly by sleeping with someone I thought I could trust and then having them brag to the whole world. I can't tell you how many times I've been betrayed with that sort of thing. How many times I cried over it, and how long it took me to regain the courage to try again with someone new. That part always really, really hurt.

EDIT THE DAY AFTER-

Thank you all so much for making this a worthwhile post for me. It means so much that you all care what I say when I am being honest and open. And that you all respected my anonymity so much. You are all why I love Reddit, and will forever consider it a safe place.

I think all of you have contributed to turn this into a really interesting, productive discussion.

Oh great. Was not expecting frontpage. Deleting personal information now.

  • [-]
  • Thinks_Like_A_Man
  • 1685 Points
  • 19:54:38, 14 December

I was a former super hot chick, and now older woman. I can tell you a few things of what it is like from the other side.

When I was 25, I too was into running and lifting weights and my body was spectacular and I had six-pack abs and a naturally large chest (36F). Everywhere I went, men of all ages stared at me. It was really annoying that most didn't even try to hide it. The ones that were the worst were the creepy middle aged men who would hit on me, thinking that they could somehow fool me into going out with them.

No matter how grounded you are, you get a skewed perspective of the world. I truly believed that men were genuinely nice to women as a matter of course. I believed that most people were nice and accommodating and liked people. This was because most of my friends were hot as well, and guys were falling all over themselves to help us, so this is all I knew. I simply didn't realize that some men are deeply hostile and only nice to women they want to fuck. I did not realize the weird code in society which equated beauty with importance. Such a thought never occurred to me that the world might be a different place than I had experienced.

I can tell you that men now are neither hostile or overly helpful. In fact, I feel pretty much invisible. And that, by itself, is okay. I can tell you I am equally ignored by females as well. It could be the age, or it could be a combination of old and not attractive. Who knows, except that I am no longer hawt.

There were a lot of privileges you don't realize as well, like making great money, getting preferential treatment, or being dealt with respectfully. It blew my mind to realize that everyone is not entitled to this as a matter of course, but it is reserved for those who are physically desirable.

I think the biggest shock to me was realizing that my entire worldview had been wrong FOR DECADES. That was the most shocking. That the shitty treatment other people whined about was indeed true, and that just because I didn't experience it firsthand did not mean it wasn't a reality. I would think to myself, "Well, if they would just project a more positive attitude, people would respond with positive attention." I was very naive about the depth of the beauty privilege until I experienced both sides. All those bullshit things I believed simply weren't true. No matter how well put together I was, how well groomed, how charming and funny I tried to be, I could not overcome it.

It wasn't losing my attractiveness that was the biggest mindfuck, being ignored or even being treated badly. It was the idea that I really didn't understand how the world worked for so long. It was the idea that I believed you could overcome this enormous force around you everywhere you went -- all day, every day -- by simply being more cheerful and charming.

Mostly, I feel badly about all the people who complained about how poorly they were treated that I simply dismissed.

  • [-]
  • FoamingBBQ
  • 216 Points
  • 18:07:44, 15 December

I'm guessing that no one will see this since there are so many comments. But here goes. I'm an average-looking female with very hot female friends. They get things for free at bars all the time, of course. One of my friends, who I'm living with, hasn't paid for her own drink in at least 3 months. They all completely accept this treatment. If I say, "I can't go in; I don't have any cash for cover," they will inevitably respond with "just walk right in like I do!" But I can't. It doesn't work like that for me and they just don't understand. They expect to get in free and they expect someone to buy their drinks. They tell me that I simply need to have more confidence and these things will come. It's not the same.

However, the worst part of it is what guys sometimes do to me. If a guy wants to get with one of my more attractive close friends, he might attempt to become my "friend," in an attempt to get closer to her. I feel insulted when this happens; I assume they think that I can't understand what is going on. For example, a guy might pay for my best friend and I to get into a bar, but only because he wants to get in her pants. He won't talk to or acknowledge me after. I am always thankful and usually offer to buy a drink, but...I dunno...it hurts to know that either I am some sort of channel to get to my friend, or that I am just a necessary expense to get in my friend's pants.

I'm sorry if I didn't make sense or have offended anyone. I suppose I sound bitter. But IRL, I kind of have to be nicer than I feel like being and I like to come to reddit to be real.

  • [-]
  • jayofdoom
  • 37 Points
  • 22:45:55, 15 December

As an "average looking guy", I'd say that being around a bunch of really hot women would make it more difficult for me to approach you. I'd assume the "hot chick indifference" would come from you too. I bet you get the worst of both worlds :/

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 39 Points
  • 02:54:21, 16 December

You are the girl of many a man's dream. You are the 7 or 8 to your friends' 10s, who could walk right over to any of the sub-8 males who lack the confidence to approach your friends.

Your friends are your personal jerk distraction team. The men with real substance remain for your consumption.

  • [-]
  • FoamingBBQ
  • 25 Points
  • 07:56:12, 16 December

Thank you. That was probably the nicest thing I've heard in a while.

  • [-]
  • stevesan
  • 13 Points
  • 19:09:46, 15 December

That sounds pretty shitty. As an average looking guy with some studly guy friends, I can sorta' relate - but probably not really, since it's different for guys.

Just remember that all that stuff isn't everything in life. Sure, clubbing and stuff is fun, but it's not the only fun in life. And it sure as hell isn't the only way to meet people. So if you don't enjoy it, I'd say, stop clubbing with these friends. Do other stuff, like hiking or sports or volunteer work. Then you meet people in a less superficial setting and your looks have less effect on your enjoyment.

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 36 Points
  • 19:41:37, 15 December

[deleted]

  • [-]
  • FoamingBBQ
  • 17 Points
  • 23:46:34, 15 December

Yes, I'm trying to move on. But basically I just wanted to explain what can happen to people like me.

  • [-]
  • FearDrow_TrustDrizzt
  • 8 Points
  • 06:52:14, 16 December

If I ever date again, I will deny the "hot" friend a drink and buy the "average" friend whatever she pleases for you. Then walk away or exclusively interact with the "average" friend. I wouuld be upfront and say I wasn't looking for anything other than interesting discourse, then thank her for that and be on my way. Why? Because I like nullifying stereotypes and fucking with people. But rest assured I will do this for you. I say for you because I am not a social or overly confident individual so pulling this off will be really uncomfortable for me. I will not enjoy it, but I believe in making people realize that the world doesn't revolve around them. If you want pictures to affirm, let me know.

  • [-]
  • xxshteviexx
  • 10 Points
  • 08:59:32, 16 December

Thanks for your post, this is definitely an interesting perspective. We guys pass around a lot of BS advice on getting "hot girls". Going in through the "average friend" is definitely something I've heard before. I don't think 99% of guys think about anyone's feelings before doing this. The general mentality is "everyone plays games, so why should this be any different?" None of it will ever lead to anything meaningful, but nobody realizes that until pretty late in the game.

  • [-]
  • FoamingBBQ
  • 6 Points
  • 15:09:48, 16 December

Yeah, I'm definitely aware of the advice about going through the average friend. I'm sort of half-okay with it, as long as the average friend also gets treated like a human being. But yeah, I think that no one really considers what the average friend thinks about these things...how she feels about being a means to an end.

I'd like to add that many of us average people are pretty genuine and fun; we sort of have to be. It's worth a shot.

  • [-]
  • xxshteviexx
  • 4 Points
  • 21:10:33, 16 December

Have you ever spotted this happening and tried to fight back? Like, actively try to refocus his attention and see if you can get him to forget the hot one?

Generally if we are that interested in the hot girl that nothing the average friend says can get us to change that, that's not about the girls anymore, that's individual conquest.

Do hot girls intentionally pal around with girls they think are less attractive in order to boost their chances?

  • [-]
  • FoamingBBQ
  • 8 Points
  • 23:12:13, 16 December

No, I haven't tried. I don't really want to be part of those interactions once I've realized it is occurring. I don't really care who the guys are interested in, but I just don't want to be used.

Anyway, I think that hot girls usually pal around with other hot girls. Don't know how I got involved in this.

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 6 Points
  • 19:26:30, 15 December

That's some bullshit right there. Unfortunately, most guys who get that -- and I include myself here -- are not all that attractive either. So we don't exactly get attention from many women, even those that "aren't hot", though we don't care nearly as much about that as hot guys do.

Kind of ironic that there are all these people out there that are just average-looking, or a little below, who don't find each other. ;-) Makes me wonder what biases we might also have.

  • [-]
  • ejempty
  • 17 Points
  • 04:31:10, 16 December

Well I for one absolutely despise hot girls. I'm so sick of being attracted to certain shapes that I quite literally have convinced myself re-establish which shapes I'm attracted to. But even beyond that, I am much more interested in who the person is and not what they look like. A really good conversation is way more interesting then two well shaped spheres. I do admit that attraction is important. But I refuse to reinforce this awful behavior.

I find that most attractive people are pathetic and boring. Quite frankly I find the attractive girls behavior sort of ridiculous. So often it seems like all the fake and short lived relationships end up making a shell of a person.

I'm an attractive male who has turned down hot girls left and right for years. I don't buy you drinks, I don't listen to you ramble and I can't stand the fucking sight of most of you. Admittedly this is only if you are shallow. However, until you prove otherwise, if you are hot; I assume you are shallow.

Also, men are not innately like this, it's a choice. The way we have structured our entire society is a choice. I predict that the Jersey shore will one day speciate into mongoloid humans with slick hair and huge abs. I just hope I live long enough to see it.

  • [-]
  • TGMais
  • 7 Points
  • 06:07:31, 16 December

> Also, men are not innately like this, it's a choice.

Some of us are, and because of that, this:

> However, until you prove otherwise, if you are hot; I assume you are shallow.

makes us pre-judge way too many people and it's a depressing realization how many walls of tests are in the way of you and new relationships.

That being said, I'm absolutely average looking guy. Definitely not the one girls will go for right of way. It isn't until they get to know me that it really becomes a possibility for a strong friendship or perhaps even a relationship. Thankfully I've finally noticed this about myself and have slowly begun opening myself up rather than making others open themselves up first.

Edit for clarification: "Strong friendships" of course require a bit more interaction, but the beginnings of things are so often the most important step.

  • [-]
  • Thinks_Like_A_Man
  • 8 Points
  • 20:32:25, 15 December

I get this, I really do. Perhaps it is time to find a better quality of friends? I do know that kind, genuine people exist. It's just that they are lost in all this noise.

Thank you for writing that. As someone who was formerly like your friends, I'd like to apologize for them. They truly do not see how it is for you. It's not being malicious, it is just ignorance on their part.

  • [-]
  • Wexie
  • 72 Points
  • 16:59:30, 15 December

Here is another perspective. I am an average looking guy who dated a really hot girl, way out of my league so to speak. I am 5,6, decent looking, and girls frequently said I had a nice body, but I was generally invisible to the hot girls. I met Wendy online. She was 5,9, long blond hair, very pretty with a slim model like figure. She was a late bloomer, and since she knew what it is like not being perceived as beautiful, she didn't act like she was all that.

After we were dating a bit, I took her to my office Christmas party. She dressed in a classy, but sexy black dress with heals. The owner of my company walked over to me ( with a few drinks in him ) and said "You must be hung like a horse to get that girl to fuck you."

I would walk down the street with her holding hands, and random guys on the street would yell "We know who has the money!" ( Which I in fact didn't. )

I switched jobs and she came by my new office. She was on a modeling interview, so she was dressed to impress. I was showing her around, and I walked past the CEO's office. He was talking with two women outside his office about business. As soon as he notices Wendy, he abruptly stops, puts on a big smile and goes "Hello!" to Wendy, ignoring the women he was talking to and me. She smiled in an embarrassed way and we walked by him. He kept eyeballing her down the hall. He didn't even see me. He did not care this woman was my girlfriend and he was in a position of authority over me. He did not care that he was being rude to the women he was talking to and being completely disrespectful to me.

That's what I kept experiencing. Because I was not as hot as her, Men constantly were disrespectful to me, because in their eyes, I didn't deserve to be with her.

  • [-]
  • Rx_MoreCowbell
  • 27 Points
  • 19:08:21, 15 December

God people are stupid. How does your boss get through life acting that way? How old is he? He sounds like he belongs in Mad Men.....

  • [-]
  • 49rows
  • 7 Points
  • 04:16:52, 17 December

Men get through life like that by not caring what other people think

  • [-]
  • professionalstudent
  • 10 Points
  • 04:40:34, 16 December

I'm a short guy 5'7 and I feel your pain, this is a big issue for me. I'm surprised you had the opportunity to date her to be honest, I cannot get the time of day from many girls because of the height thing.

I am also into Olympic weightlifting and I sometimes get stereotyped for having little man syndrome or that I'm somehow overcompensating just because of how I look and how I spend my time, even though my close friends have referred to me as "one of the most laid back people" they know.

People are judgmental and it sucks. I know I do it too, though I try to do it less and less everyday. I think threads like this are pretty cool because you see problems other people face that you probably never even considered.

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 6 Points
  • 18:17:44, 15 December

I'm probably a 6-7 on the looks scale and combined with my other assets can pull 10s on occasion--I mean women who are way out of my league-- and I get the same thing, people have actually come up to me and highfived me in front of them and congratulated me, it's unbelievable to the point of being absurd.

  • [-]
  • kskxt
  • 4 Points
  • 20:46:51, 15 December

I hope you don't work there anymore.

  • [-]
  • FuckYouGuys
  • 630 Points
  • 21:04:00, 14 December

That's a fascinating perspective. I'm a guy and I've come at this from the other side- I was less attractive when I was younger and have managed to transform myself. The attention I get now has always felt very hollow. I get plenty of looks and, while it's gratifying, I don't honestly feel that flattered by it. I'm proud of my accomplishments but I'm the same person I've always been. Before, when I was awkward, it made me a loser. Now, when I'm awkward, it's cute or charming. Liking science and computer games back then made it easier for people to label me as a dork, even though I was physically active. Now people seem to think of me as an athlete who knows a lot about computers.

It really is shocking to be able to see the contrast. I consider myself very fortunate.

Question for you- if you could go back now into the body of your younger self, what would you do differently?

  • [-]
  • Thinks_Like_A_Man
  • 498 Points
  • 21:58:09, 14 December

That is an interesting question that I have pondered myself.

I can tell you that all that false flattery is damaging when you don't realize why you are getting it. False flattery is false validation -- meaning you often attribute things that you do as valuable or acceptable when in fact, people are merely ignoring it because you are beautiful.

For example, one friend I had was far more attractive that I was. She would get drunk and act very inappropriately, like screaming things in a public place that would get anyone else thrown out. She had zero basic table manners and ate like a barbarian -- yet men still took her to expensive restaurants. Because she was so beautiful, men tended to ignore this behavior, but she had very big red flags for emotional problems. Because no one ever called her on her shit, she thought the way she was acting was cute. I tried to teach her how to eat properly and she told me that I was the only person who thought she needed to learn how to cut food with a knife.

Being beautiful is like having a get out of jail free card to excuse your piss poor treatment of others.

That's another thing. There was a point where some of my friends would see how far they could go treating some guy like shit, to see if he would still stick around. It was pretty messed up.

Beauty can sometimes become a sword, but most often is used as an excuse to not have to be a better human being.

I can tell you that I got much further in life from my looks rather than my brains when dealing with other people.

No doubt it is because many men would happily date someone who was extremely hot and very fucked up. I think many men would exchange quite a few sanity or intelligence points for a more attractive woman. One guy told me he would date a woman who was anorexic, schizophrenic or a skank as long as she looked hot. He said he would not date an ugly woman who was very compatible with him no matter what her qualities.

And that's the rub. We reward and value appearance -- which is bad enough -- but we also completely negate any other good qualities if this requirement is not met first.

If I went back, I would not date because I am so disillusioned with the dynamic. All this time, I thought that men were around me because I was interesting and smart, but in reality, they just wanted to fuck me. Honestly, it really makes me sad for the 20-something me. Like all that work I did on myself to be a better person, to be knowledgeable and well-read was a giant waste of time (then), because no one really gave a shit. I could have been a fucking crack whore and cheated on all them and gotten away with it.

I'm having a hard time moving past it all, as you can no doubt tell. I'm not upset about how I am treated now, I am more upset about how I was treated before.

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 506 Points
  • 14:24:01, 15 December

My wife has always been attractive, but recently she dropped a ton of weight and got in shape, to the point where she's getting "hawt girl" treatment for the first time that she's aware of.

She was really enjoying all the attention men were giving her, and it was putting a serious strain on our marriage, until she made it clear to a few guys that no, she wasn't going to fool around with them. The sudden turnaround in the way they treated her ("If sex isn't on the table, I don't really have time to talk") totally blindsided her, and she got pretty bitter pretty fast.

The upside for me is that now she treats me even better than she did before, because she now realizes that I've always been here for her, truly for better or for worse. :-)

  • [-]
  • imputed5
  • 246 Points
  • 15:04:40, 15 December

Was it the beard?

  • [-]
  • xxbigphilxx
  • 149 Points
  • 15:13:43, 15 December

im thinking it was the AX.

  • [-]
  • Boyblunder
  • 90 Points
  • 15:57:07, 15 December

E.

  • [-]
  • orbat
  • 94 Points
  • 16:35:22, 15 December
MOV EAX, 1
  • [-]
  • OMGASQUIRREL
  • 58 Points
  • 18:15:29, 15 December

FML. I never wanted to see another line of assembly EVER after this past semester and you just ruined it. However your syntax appears strange to me and now I'm curious. I was under the impression (at least for the Intel 8085/6) that MOV replaced the value in one register with the current value of another, i.e.

MOV A,B

read "Move into A, B" would replace the contents of A with the contents of B (no effect on B). MVI, or "MOV immediate" as my professor called it, could replace a register's contents with a specified value in code, e.g.

MVI C, 0

read "Move into C, zero" would make the C register now contain 00h.

So here is why I am confused. I am assuming that EAX is a register on a significantly more modern processor, but then you either meant MVI EAX, 1 or the syntax for that particular command is different than the basics I learned.

  • [-]
  • TheAughtSpectrum
  • 28 Points
  • 16:25:51, 15 December

He gave her E?

  • [-]
  • frankichiro
  • 14 Points
  • 18:27:54, 15 December

Ecsactly.

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 66 Points
  • 17:19:50, 15 December

But she's also fucking you. So, yes, you treat her better, but sex is also on the table...both figuratively and literally.

  • [-]
  • Wriiight
  • 59 Points
  • 18:30:39, 15 December

Now that I have taken up carpentry as a hobby, I wonder if I could have sex on a table without wondering what kind of joinery has gone into keeping the legs firmly attached to the table top. "Wait, honey, hold on ... let's see ... Oooo, those are some good tenons ... Alright, I'm ready!"

  • [-]
  • bishopazrael
  • 14 Points
  • 22:44:08, 15 December

You should seriously look into designing your own sex-sofa. I met a guy through a movie union and he was telling us that he's making stuff for porn sets now.... custom measured stuff that's easier for them to work on. He's done some really cool swedish looking stuff that I would no shit own, porn or not. He was telling us about how the positions and shit they want to do now combined with where the camera is going to be etc.... I guess its still a small market but he started as a hobby as well. He was an electrician. Anyways good luck with that.

  • [-]
  • microsofat
  • 10 Points
  • 05:24:09, 16 December

Corollary to rule 34: If you can think of it, there is furniture for it.

  • [-]
  • yakk372
  • 21 Points
  • 20:18:56, 15 December

He was there before she lost weight, and he's there now, and he'll probably be there when she puts weight back on.

So yes, sex is on the table, but for the right reasons.

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 57 Points
  • 18:36:34, 15 December

> The sudden turnaround in the way they treated her ("If sex isn't on the table, I don't really have time to talk") totally blindsided her, and she got pretty bitter pretty fast.

I went from average-looking (i.e., invisible) to attractive/hot girl a few years ago. That blindsided me as well. Before I had to work so hard on my personality and try to super-maximize the awesomeness before any guy would even want to talk to me, much less hit on me, and I never got asked out. Now I don't even have to try. Guys are way too eager to fuck/date me... I'm incredibly cynical about dating and opposite-gender friendship now.

I'm not necessarily complaining, because it means that if I do like a guy, I can go after him and know that I will definitely get him. But at the same time, it really fucking sucks that this is how the world works.

  • [-]
  • Its_Kakes
  • 18 Points
  • 21:37:27, 15 December

Ditto.

To the point where I don't wear makeup and have special ugly clothes for when I go out in hopes of meeting someone. I don't want a guy who likes me for my looks, and I know anyone interested in me when I look my worst is a good guy. If we hang out again, I gradually start wearing makeup, doing hair, wearing my normal clothes. Then I'll know he likes me for me, and it's a bonus if I'm hot.

That being said, the rest of the time I try to look nice because it's ridiculous how much easier life is when you're good looking. People are friendly, polite, and way more patient.

Word to the wise: if you're going to date a hot girl, date one who hasn't been hot her entire life, or somehow realizes that she gets treated better but that doesn't mean she can treat everyone else worse.

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 72 Points
  • 19:01:58, 15 December

After seeing all the before/after pics in /r/fitness, I've come to one conclusion - virtually anyone can be "hot" if they just get in shape and buy some decent clothes. All the nerdy/dumpy/dorky guys - when they lose 20 lbs and put on some muscle it's like the mousy girl taking off her glasses in a teen romance. It's pretty much the same for women - lose some weight, build some muscle, buy a wonderbra. Bam - average sized hottie.

With that in mind, I'm less hostile to the "looks make the world go round" type thing, since just about anyone can get it if they care to try.

  • [-]
  • AMerrickanGirl
  • 11 Points
  • 00:34:05, 16 December

That's not true. Some people just don't have the face or body type to be hot.

  • [-]
  • ttelephone
  • 13 Points
  • 22:19:43, 15 December

Yes, but the unfair thing about "looks make the world go round" is that some people have to try a lot more than other because they have worse genetics. And that for men looks are not as important as for women. And that being hot it is not so easy as you say: from the teenager with acne when his looks are more important to the older women who cannot be young and hot or could be that just by transforming herself in what she is not. Why should she get a worse treatment at the tickets line than a hot woman?

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 14 Points
  • 19:58:08, 15 December

And some women do just seem to wear "frumpy" clothes, are terrible at doing their make-up, and have rather bland hair. Seriously, nearly any woman who fixes the weight and muscle thing, does her hair and make-up at least fairly decently and dresses well will probably look fairly decent.

Men too probably (maybe not the make-up).

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 22 Points
  • 20:13:04, 15 December

One interesting subset of the "frumpy clothes" set are the women who have stealth racks - they are well-endowed, but are apparently embarrassed about it, so they walk hunched over and wear bulky sweaters...

  • [-]
  • deathbearbrown
  • 27 Points
  • 23:40:58, 15 December

It's really hard to buy clothes when you have big boobs. For example, a shirt that is supposed to stop at the waist on a normal sized lady, on a gal with a big chest, it ends up looking like a half shirt, stopping above the navel.

So a lot of girls end up having to buy oversized clothes, thus the bulky sweaters and the hunching, trying to pull those shirts down.

  • [-]
  • iskin
  • 5 Points
  • 22:00:34, 15 December

I told this to a quadriplegic who was complaining about the lack of intimacy in his life, and all I got was a bunch of angry looks. Why are you getting up votes?

  • [-]
  • mjs1234
  • 86 Points
  • 16:01:05, 15 December

Your wife weighed over 2,000lbs?

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 20 Points
  • 17:36:56, 15 December

She dropped a metric tonne.

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 6 Points
  • 20:39:33, 15 December

if she dropped 2000 lbs, that would be a metric shit tonne.

  • [-]
  • hearforthepuns
  • 12 Points
  • 18:24:24, 15 December

Does she weigh -200lbs now?

  • [-]
  • SniperXPX
  • 8 Points
  • 17:16:13, 15 December

Wow, that last bit really is powerful. You have a keeper, trust me.

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 21 Points
  • 18:13:56, 15 December

Shut up gimly, we all know you married your axe.

  • [-]
  • bitspace
  • 4 Points
  • 04:54:02, 16 December

My ex lost a lot of weight and started taking better care of herself and looking better... and ended up fucking the first guy who showed her some attention.

  • [-]
  • alex_texasiswest
  • 12 Points
  • 17:58:03, 15 December

you have my bow

  • [-]
  • CACuzcatlan
  • 197 Points
  • 01:01:27, 15 December

> That's another thing. There was a point where some of my friends would see how far they could go treating some guy like shit, to see if he would still stick around. It was pretty messed up.

I was never treated like shit, but I used to go out of my way to do nice things for girls I was attracted to. I learned that no matter what you do, if they don't like you at first, they won't change their minds.

  • [-]
  • AlienAssBabies
  • 122 Points
  • 14:55:56, 15 December

I can't stress this more. I just turn 28 and spent the last 5 years of my life breaking my back for the girl I thought was perfect. No matter what I did all I got was that I was great and our relationship was complicated. Complicated yes, because I was something like an indentured servant and even thought she really was a nice person she knew that wanted to keep me strung along but her feelings would never change. Life sure as hell isn't like the movies. (at least not for me)

  • [-]
  • selectrix
  • 42 Points
  • 16:08:20, 15 December

You know, I was pissed about spending a little under two years in your situation. Now I'm happy it didn't take any longer.

  • [-]
  • esdevil4u
  • 18 Points
  • 16:59:58, 15 December

I am on a very similar page. I dated this girl for 2 years, I believe it was symbiotic got dumped, then a year later she calls me to reconnect, I reopen my heart and after spending the last month with her talking, texting and "hanging out," she said it was too complicated and didn't think that I was the one...I was livid, but now, I just appreciate her honesty and her not dragging it out any longer.

  • [-]
  • citrusvanilla
  • 12 Points
  • 17:27:31, 15 December

similar situation... except the chick who is/was stringing doesn't have the -cajones- to put it on the table like that so i had to -man- up and figure that out for myself. im proud of myself for realizing the situation and also her current resignation to me putting the situation out as i saw it. every day that goes by confirms my decision

  • [-]
  • countpotato
  • 13 Points
  • 19:44:35, 15 December

Nazi de la gramática cajones = drawers (as in dresser, not underpantalones) / cojones = balls.

  • [-]
  • hoyter
  • 27 Points
  • 16:34:43, 15 December

I know how you feel. I had 7 years of it myself. I was unable to see how truly unhappy I was until she left. Best gift she ever gave me was my freedom back.

The next girl I dated changed my world for the better. Its an amazing feeling when someone treats you with respect and honesty.

  • [-]
  • AlienAssBabies
  • 11 Points
  • 17:34:42, 15 December

exactly sir. You can't see it while you are in it. No matter what your friends say you think you are different until you realize you are not.

  • [-]
  • uponone
  • 21 Points
  • 16:50:05, 15 December

I know of a woman like this. Mid 20's and 'hanging out' with a millionaire. She flat out told me she would never hook up with him and enjoys the money he spends on her. The thing is, he knows it as well but is 'smitten' by her beauty. He's in his early 40's. You would think he would have learned by now.

  • [-]
  • SafetyTroll
  • 41 Points
  • 18:42:01, 15 December

> She flat out told me she would never hook up with him

That's so you don't think she's a whore.

  • [-]
  • tkilgore
  • 25 Points
  • 19:24:34, 15 December

FACT: she fucks him for things.

  • [-]
  • leapsntwirls
  • 8 Points
  • 20:45:19, 15 December

True, but if he knowingly complies, then who's the idiot? Granted, both are morally disturbed, but, seriously?

  • [-]
  • keyspirate
  • 9 Points
  • 18:43:18, 15 December

I think that you're the one who needs some learning. That millionaire is getting his money's worth, I guarantee it.

  • [-]
  • uponone
  • 6 Points
  • 19:27:59, 15 December

No he's not. She goes home with other guys right in front of him.

  • [-]
  • notsofst
  • 2 Points
  • 22:59:40, 15 December

I'm sure he's deeply wounded, and cries himself to sleep on top of his huge pile of money.

  • [-]
  • alang
  • 4 Points
  • 19:50:05, 15 December

The funny thing is, in my admittedly limited experience, you're much more likely to end up with the girl (at least temporarily) if you don't go out of your way for her. In a couple of cases, in my younger years, I was interested in very attractive women (in both cases also extremely smart and creative) but had the attitude of 'I'll be damned if I'm going to bust my ass trying to impress her... if she doesn't like me the way I am, then to hell with her'. In both cases, I'm fairly certain that it was this attitude, and not any inherent attractiveness of me over any of my rivals, that gave me a 'competitive advantage'.

One of them ended up living 500 miles away, and we broke up amicably. The other one ended up dumping me for someone else who was actually actively ambivalent, to the point of dumping her a half dozen times.

This is when I formed my 'general theory of human behavior': 'people are fucked up, the end.'

  • [-]
  • fuweike
  • 18 Points
  • 15:35:29, 15 December

Wow this is so true. Been there myself. When you have the "love blinders" on, it's hard to see anything else. Listen to your friends if they're all telling you the girl isn't right for you--that's a mistake I made.

  • [-]
  • Boyblunder
  • 13 Points
  • 15:56:55, 15 December

In fact, just listen to your friends all the time. Best advice I could ever give anyone is to listen to what your close friends have to say. Too many people ignore those who mean the most.

  • [-]
  • Non-prophet
  • 4 Points
  • 16:09:13, 15 December

Worked this out in college. Wish I'd been informed earlier.

  • [-]
  • radd9er
  • 29 Points
  • 23:54:37, 14 December

how old are you now? how long has it been since you became aware of all this? are you american?

  • [-]
  • Thinks_Like_A_Man
  • 93 Points
  • 00:59:34, 15 December

50, female, US.

I will still fairly hot in my 30s, but I was married. While the propositions slowed down, the nice treatment didn't. When I hit about 45, it became very noticeable.

  • [-]
  • WideLight
  • 41 Points
  • 15:06:53, 15 December

You know, this happens earlier I think for guys. A lot of my fellows have complained about how they simply "disappear" at age 30. Unless you've got something outstanding (money, power, prestige, fame) you're simply not even on the block. You can't even try to date... women just look at you funny, or laugh at you, or degrade you. It's pretty horrific.

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 26 Points
  • 15:19:36, 15 December

That is amazing to me. I have always gotten all the "hawt girl" treatment and am scared shitless of getting older and being nothing. I always thought that guys had it easy because they didn't have to watch their weight as close, not as much to worry with the hair and all and no makeup. To me, older guys can be just as hot older as younger. I thought it was easier for guys.

  • [-]
  • WideLight
  • 36 Points
  • 15:28:46, 15 December

See, now that I think about it, it may even be harder for men. I mean, not to sound callous, but just the act of "being hawt" is enough for a lot of women to make it through life. As this thread illustrates, there are plenty of men who are willing to just hand things to "hawt" women. Jobs, marriages, merchandise etc. But for men, "hawt" just isn't enough. You've got to prove you're "worth something" (with power, fame, money) to be attractive and make it through life.

I have a friend who was once a tad overweight, but he was a super nice guy. I was kinda the opposite: super thin and really a dick to people. He moved away for a long time and I saw him a few years ago. He'd lost a ton of weight (so much that I didn't even recognize him when I opened the door) and had gotten married to a beautiful woman. He said to me, regarding his weight loss: "Now I know what it's like to be you." That struck me, for various reasons.

My point I guess is that, for him it may have worked out that simply "getting hawt" was enough to achieve what he wanted, but he also has the master's degree, a good job, etc. So getting all of those things was enough to get the girl, as it were.

  • [-]
  • benjamincanfly
  • 20 Points
  • 17:39:49, 15 December

Is anyone else surprised by everyone using the word "hawt" in "quotation marks" instead of just using the word "hot" normally?

Upvote btw.

  • [-]
  • Non-prophet
  • 6 Points
  • 16:13:26, 15 December

You know how, when you see an older woman, sometimes you can kind of tell she was a bombshell in her youth? It fills me with schadenfreude every time.

I hate watching most people my own gender expend so much energy slitting one another's throats for even the chance of validation from attractive women.

Easier for guys? I am extremely skeptical. See widelight's comment.

  • [-]
  • allmytoes
  • 50 Points
  • 15:23:15, 15 December

I don't know about that. There are many men who have aged gracefully into their 30s and 40s, and I (as a 21 f) would be happy to date. In many ways, I would almost prefer to date them over my own age group. There is more experience and knowledge to be found in the brain of a 30-40 year old than in a 20something frat boy. If a man has taken care of himself and knows how to dress, there is no reason why he couldn't get a girl in his later years.

EDIT: That is my viewpoint anyway. I don't THINK it's that rare. >_>;

EDIT2: Based on my limited understanding of human biology and behavior, my guess is that this my be partially due to the following: Successful male, with good genetics, lives a while, has lots of kids, and is essentially a proven provider. Younger females are attracted to that because his genetic material has been proven, rather than making a bet based solely on looks in a younger male.

  • [-]
  • WideLight
  • 26 Points
  • 15:33:10, 15 December

Well, I mean, put yourself in my shoes: I'm a 30-something, but trying to date younger women is not really pleasant. I don't have that kind of energy anymore, don't want to party or be out all night or spend a lot of money on "courting" rituals. 11:00 is my bed time! And, really, I feel the same about experience that you do: I don't like dating girls that are inexperienced. [yoda]Fucked I am[/yoda]

  • [-]
  • Craptcha
  • 63 Points
  • 16:31:17, 15 December

If you perform random Yoda voices during your dates I think we might have discovered another factor.

  • [-]
  • EByrne
  • 10 Points
  • 17:46:08, 15 December

This is just a shot in the dark, but maybe the problem is that you're trying to date younger women. Try dating someone your own age. I find it kinda funny that your issue is that you're invisible because 21 year old girls don't want you anymore. If that makes you the victim, then what are the 30-something women in this equation? Doubly invisible?

  • [-]
  • allmytoes
  • 6 Points
  • 15:44:15, 15 December

Weirdly enough, that's how I feel about men my age. Maybe I'm just weird, but I can't drink (I get super sick and it takes me 2 days or so to get back to normal), and I can't stay up late unless it's doing something quiet (videogames, computer, etc).

Perhaps you should look into the grad student dating pool? But from what you're saying, perhaps looking at your own age range might be the way to go. Is youth such a strong prerequisite in your book?

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 22 Points
  • 17:06:27, 15 December

[deleted]

  • [-]
  • cesspoolsineden
  • 7 Points
  • 16:42:18, 15 December

I'm with allmytoes--likewise, I'm a 21-year-old female who sees no problem with dating a man in his thirties. Of course, actual individual compatibility and some age gap issues are another story, but every relationship is different, yes? Point is, men (in my experience, and that of a good deal of other girls I know) do not "disappear"past age 30. Far from it. A guy who has had the time and life experience to finally become completely comfortable and confident in himself can be very attractive. And you guys are lucky-- when you age, it becomes more of a "rugged attractiveness" thing, whereas ladies are nothing but "wilted flowers", as my asshole father puts it.

  • [-]
  • Rx_MoreCowbell
  • 3 Points
  • 18:31:22, 15 December

Couldn't agree more with this. Popular culture treats men up to around 45-50 as sexual objects as long as you are considered attractive (Brad Pitt, Johnny Depp) and women have a real hard time after 40 no matter how attractive with some exceptions (Julia Roberts, Diane Lane) and even then with lots of mirror tricks (camera, make-up and lighting).

The sexually idealized women is the skinny nubile girl of around 17-25 and its a crying shame because most people at that age don't know what the fuck they are doing or how to process all that 'power'. If you have ever spent a night with a gorgeous woman (or man) that is a total nothing upstairs you are pretty much cured of this superficial dynamic (women are better at this than men. Most men really do think with their balls).

I guess the point is to be an adult and learn that attraction is more than skin deep. For most people experience teaches us this. Thats why I find some of the posts here mystifying.

  • [-]
  • lectrick
  • 10 Points
  • 16:38:24, 15 December

I'm 38 and seriously, what is this?

I have no problem getting laid. I do find it harder to find a good girlfriend... ironically because I have a better idea of what works for me.

I think that if you DO have a job and you DO try to not get fat... And you have somewhat of a personality... (you're on Reddit, so you're probably smart, women value that too...) Unless you're balding (some guys my age are, and even then, you can often work past that), you will be rolling in strange. Also, women are easier to date because the women in the 26-35ish age range you normally shoot for have gotten over their policeman/fireman fixations and now value what you have.

  • [-]
  • NW_passage
  • 3 Points
  • 17:48:09, 15 December

I find older men very attractive and always have. I'm ~30, but I see attractive men in their 40's and 50's all the time, and even some guys in their 60's are attractive (maybe not in an "I want to bang him" kind of way, but a "Wow, that man looks great" kind of way.

If a 30 year old guy feels like he's disappeared you can be sure that it has to do with qualities that plenty of 30 year old women share. Regardless of sex, if a person doesn't take good care of themselves they will find that they get overlooked.

  • [-]
  • tacrat1995
  • 4 Points
  • 23:15:42, 15 December

I have had the opposite experience. I am 34 now , I make average money, have no power, prestige, or fame and I have never recieved the attention I get now. The same goes for my single friends of my age and status level. I would never have been asked out by a girl when i was younger and now it is a pretty frequent occurance. However I am not shy and tend to be the center of the conversation.

Also, I have noticed that when I was in my early twenties I thought the guys that were in their early 30's that were dating girls my age were kinda weird, but now I see that girls in their 20's very frequently hit on older guys. Here it was those guys just accepting the invitation sort of speak. I, however, still date ladies around my own age out of preference.

  • [-]
  • Irradiance
  • 29 Points
  • 14:07:52, 15 December

When you do realise you're getting it, it becomes extremely grating and gnaws at your self esteem. I get subject to this now and then. I must be getting better looking in age because it's happening with increasing frequency.

It makes me very self conscious when women just blatantly favour and fawn over me in the company of my less-attractive friends and colleagues. I'm so conscious of it and honestly I don't know if said friends realise what's going on, but I feel terribly undeserving of the attention.

All the false praise is completely hollow. It makes it hard to accept any praise at all, because one always doubts the motivation behind it, to the extent that you wonder if you're actually good at anything (or at least as good as they tell you).

Also, my social skills, particularly being able to treat people in a way that builds rapport, are somewhat lacking because I've always been able to smile sweetly to bridge the initial gap, but people come to realise there's nothing there and the relationship doesn't progress.

  • [-]
  • vr4henry
  • 26 Points
  • 15:01:53, 15 December

Very interesting perspective. I dated a "hot chick" for about 6 months and experienced a lot of the stuff you're describing but it took a looooong time for it to set in. I absolutely ignored the bad things so I could keep seeing her naked. Mistake.

Not to be completely redundant -- but I think the whole getting false validation thing is an addiction. If any of you have read the book "Choke" by Palahniuk he describes being a sex addict as people that need sex all the time just to stay "level". I have to liken this to my EX getting complimented on things. People would always post on her FB or whatever that she looked so good, or was so great, smart, funny, etc. I mean all the time. Probably 30 posts a day. I actually started calling it her fan club. It turns out she hardly knew these people but she had to have the attention. Looking back on it -- I think she needed it just to be "level".

It's too bad really, she was actually pretty smart, but who knew? (cared)

  • [-]
  • FuckYouGuys
  • 11 Points
  • 16:44:19, 15 December

I actually have had one of these girls invite me to become a fan of her on Facebook. It really is that flagrant sometimes.

  • [-]
  • vr4henry
  • 5 Points
  • 16:56:10, 15 December

Jebus. That's just over the top.

  • [-]
  • groovychick
  • 12 Points
  • 14:11:21, 15 December

>And that's the rub. We reward and value appearance -- which is bad enough -- but we also completely negate any other good qualities if this requirement is not met first.

This is the reason the divorce rate is so high.

  • [-]
  • GunnerMcGrath
  • 34 Points
  • 14:26:49, 15 December

> And that's the rub. We reward and value appearance -- which is bad enough -- but we also completely negate any other good qualities if this requirement is not met first.

Unfortunately, men are built this way. But the fact is that for any reasonable guy, looks may be a prerequisite but they're not enough. I've taken a lot of beautiful women out and never called them again because they were boring or stupid or annoying or just plain uninteresting. I regret that now, but hey, a lot of women I liked never called me back too. =) But with every serious relationship I was ever in, including the woman I married, I knew on our first date that she was something different and special. Looks got them in the door, but they didn't get months or years of my life because they were pretty.

  • [-]
  • flaxeater
  • 26 Points
  • 14:46:59, 15 December

Love erases many flaws. It can make the homely sexy and desirable.

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 5 Points
  • 15:31:52, 15 December

And makes the sexy and desirable venus-like.

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 7 Points
  • 15:24:19, 15 December

I seriously hope there are lots more men like you around. Especially when my little girls are old enough to date.

  • [-]
  • GunnerMcGrath
  • 24 Points
  • 15:27:04, 15 December

That's a nice sentiment. The problem is that men like me aren't born this way, we have had to learn from a decade or two of being absolute pricks and idiots. I would not wish the 23 year old me on anyone, and have regularly considered going back and apologizing to pretty much every girl I've ever known if I wasn't worried that it would bring up bad memories for most of them.

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 11 Points
  • 15:47:09, 15 December

That reminds me of something my older brother told me when I was dating. He said all men should be put in a barrel with the lid nailed on as soon as they hit puberty. After 10 years, open the lid, check on them, see they're still sex starved deviants, nail the lid back on. After another 20 or so years take the lid off again. About 50% can be let out into society, maybe. I always found that funny and thought he was exaggerating greatly. Maybe not?

  • [-]
  • Tbabs
  • 35 Points
  • 14:59:55, 15 December

> There was a point where some of my friends would see how far they could go treating some guy like shit, to see if he would still stick around. It was pretty messed up.

I hate this. With all that I am, I hate this.

  • [-]
  • needsmorecoffee
  • 31 Points
  • 15:52:15, 15 December

While I agree, it's also the case that they wouldn't keep doing it if their behavior didn't get rewarded by guys sticking around. They need to act like decent people, but people also need to not value and reward appearance so far above decent civilized behavior.

  • [-]
  • ImaLamer
  • 6 Points
  • 16:16:15, 15 December

Don't let my comment history fool you - like most people my real life persona is much different, and I'm what I consider a "nice guy" IRL. And I've had this happen to me so many times, and even after seeing it I've continued to fall for it. Even to the point of missing out on what might have been a solid relationship because I was too busy chasing a dream.

This, to me, is as bad as making fun of the handicapped.

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 33 Points
  • 23:55:57, 14 December

>No doubt it is because many men would happily date someone who was extremely hot and very fucked up. I think many men would exchange quite a few sanity or intelligence points for a more attractive woman. One guy told me he would date a woman who was anorexic, schizophrenic or a skank as long as she looked hot. He said he would not date an ugly woman who was very compatible with him no matter what her qualities.

I think you know fucked up people. Most people want someone they can live with. The only people I know that think like this are miserable and have a lot of problems. Maybe it was the social circles you ran with? Nobody I know thinks like this. Also, is intelligence more respected in men than women?

  • [-]
  • Thinks_Like_A_Man
  • 56 Points
  • 01:00:25, 15 December

Perhaps. I have noticed that men in other parts of the country are much nicer. I think the closer you get to major metropolitan areas on the coasts, the worse the problem is.

But I also think that men tend to be a bit more open with me and engage me in conversation.

One guy I know is overweight, had diabetes and smokes. He sent me photos of three women, one was lovely, the other was average and the third was pretty bad. He was insulted that these women dared to seek him out on a dating site and started telling me about how his last wife was a Miss America contestant. It was very sad.

  • [-]
  • FuckYouGuys
  • 30 Points
  • 16:42:30, 15 December

90% chance he was hitting on you.

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 19 Points
  • 17:45:38, 15 December

Demonstrating social value! Look at me! Look at how many women I've turned down! Don't you want me more?!

  • [-]
  • Thinks_Like_A_Man
  • 4 Points
  • 22:50:52, 15 December

It made me dump him as a friend.

  • [-]
  • revenantae
  • 58 Points
  • 13:58:22, 15 December

I believe it's called immaturity. Way back when, in my younger and stupider days, I put a lot of stock in looks. I ended up dating a string of very beautiful, but whacked out women. It wasn't that I didn't value intelligence, or wit, it was just that my hormones and my dick did the vast majority of the thinking for me.

It wasn't till my mid 20s, when my latest wacky ass hot girlfriend got institutionalized that it dawned on my that perhaps, just maybe, there was more to the whole relationship thing than sex and insanity. My whole world view had been based around getting with a hot girl. If she happened to have a brain, that was a bonus. I honestly thought relationships sucked ass till I began looking for a good woman, and figured if she was hot THAT was the bonus.

It wouldn't have happened had I not also gotten to the point that constant sex was no longer my main goal in life. It's not till sex is no longer a prime motivator that you can get past the looks. Your body is telling you to snag a pretty girl because she has better genes. It takes maturity for your mind to override that.

  • [-]
  • uberneoconcert
  • 48 Points
  • 16:17:30, 15 December

I have Asperger's and did not realize that I was attractive until a lot of people started outright telling me, and it was at work in a fast-paced environment that I took very seriously. I was so focused on my work and was so very upset by their comments because I had what I thought was going for me and they were getting in my way: work ethic, analysis skills, positive attitude and desire to learn. I actually frumped myself up, wearing baggy old lady clothes I bought at Talbot's and it kind of worked, at least it shoo'd away the dumber &or more attractive jocks who outright ask to fuck. I thought people who helped me after that genuinely wanted to mentor a young professional whom they saw themselves or the future in. Yeah, guys are not like that. I didn't realize that many older men have such little interaction with women that they have a really long time period for buttering you up. Now when I see people who I used to work with who fell into the above category, I realize they're overtly hitting on me and don't give a rat's ass what I do even though they could probably benefit from what I know in my industry. I also had no idea why the women avoided me at work and my only female work friend is another hot female - more about her later.

Tracking backwards, I thought people liked me in high school because I was funny in a zany way and on all the varsity sports teams (I have five letters in five different sports because I shifted friends so often). I found playing the social ladder game in high school to be exhausting keeping up with everyone's bullshit so I quit that and focused more on grades and people on the social fringes who in my opinion had a lot more fun things to do. I played sports but not because I liked other people, it's because I wanted (and got) a scholarship to play in a division I program.

I also I didn't realize how inappropriate my behavior was and how much people had simply accepted me for superficial reasons until college when I was focused on learning business lessons which included all these social skills I didn't have -- even though these things didn't hurt my dating and hook-up prospects. I never thought about putting myself together to be attractive and never had problems with guys (except that some were intimidated by me). I didn't even realize I could 'take advantage' of it (or that I had already been in some ways, specifically with grades) until another hot friend introduced me to the 'game' that is getting guys to pay for drinks. That was a rush and I had no idea that the game was already tipped in our favor, I thought we'd figured out some kind of NLP or social hacking, and put more effort into the follow-through of getting away from them then getting the drink. I realized later what we had done. I still only dress the part when I'm going into a situation that would benefit me for the extra effort.

My very first job out of college forced me to develop real social skills - it was working in an over-the-phone sales-type environment. It was so hard and I sucked at it but got better from making so many calls a day and having to follow-up in person. I actually recommend that type of job for anyone with Asperger's because it was basic skills I needed that I was forced to practice 8 hours a day. I'm still learning and adjusting my rule book from time to time (in my late 20s now).

My second job, the one I kept for a year and a half, was secretarial and I had no idea how much I was over-paid. Yes, being tall and attractive helps a LOT and sometimes I feel like people think I'm a sham even though I put a lot of effort, maybe even more, into the job. People see things in you and somehow decide that you've made them feel a certain way. I still can't explain it but I give my best effort to making everyone leave any interaction with me on a positive note.

I used to agree with what the lady above said about other people needing to be upbeat and projecting of confidence. While that's true, it's only part of it - people ALSO need to figure out how to provide value to everyone they meet, even if it's just a sweet compliment or little favor. I can provide that value simply by giving (a man) the opportunity to talk to me, and it feels so weird to 'get the meeting' with people whom especially guys in my position would NEVER get. The first chick is right though, about people expecting you to look a certain way. My mother hates me for my looks and success evnen though she saw success in her own right, and has almost never helped me even though she could. I think she never figured out her lack of social skills and fell flat on her face when she planned to retire from her career and thought she'd instantly be picked up into her next. and tries to tell me I have an eating disorder when really I just trained myself to attach a stigma to 'fat people food'. That said, my favorite outfit is a tee shirt and jeans and my favorite meal is a Five Guys burger. I plan for a lot of calories because I do so many happy hours, so people only see me eat healthful foods when I'm in a regular environment where I just don't choose to gorge myself. On the flip side, I also get comments about not looking good enough. It makes me feel unwanted and under-valued. This comes from my family when I don't put makeup on or get dressed up - and I also get comments from men who realize I don't dress up for them. I didn't realize I could hurt people who have no idea they are not in my radar. It took me a long time to realize any attention I pay to any man is assumed to be sexual by him (I'm pretty sure this is true for all women?)

In my current job which relies on a lot of networking to build relationships between companies, I am just getting into the rhythm of of my natural abilities and learning how to keep from developing inappropriate relationships with these men I come into contact with. I forget a lot that they say things because they want to have sex with me, and I even give passes to guys who come straight out and offer because I figure they are just too goche to keep what all the guys are thinking in their head. I also hate that some men talk about me as if the absolute only reason I'm successful is because I'm attractive. I refuse to believe it.

There is another as-hot or hotter girl that I work with who is in her 30s and she and I connect over being 'naturally' successful though she leans on me to help her with the execution side and I lean on her to fill me in on things I've missed and my behavioral skills. She makes less than me and I'm convinced she is not as successful because she doesn't know the business side like I do. But how will I ever really know? We talk about personal stuff from time to time. She always has relationship problems because she only dates gorgeous men who end up having weird hang-ups yet she refuses to consider dating other guys. I was engaged to a gorgeous guy and found out he was crazy and quite possibly gay too late...since then I only dated guys that were fun to hang out with who were clean-cut and workaholics like me. I believe I am with the best person who is out there for me.

  • [-]
  • revenantae
  • 31 Points
  • 16:34:35, 15 December

>took me a long time to realize any attention I pay to any man is assumed to be sexual by him

Not so, unless you deal with a lot of immature men. Once a guy has his act together, his priorities straight, and is in a stable relationship, he doesn't give much of a crap who gives him attention or why.

>I also hate that some men talk about me as if the absolute only reason I'm successful is because I'm attractive. I refuse to believe it.

I think you do believe it. All the following statements indicate that you do.

  • it feels so weird to 'get the meeting' with people whom especially guys in my position would NEVER get
  • I had no idea how much I was over-paid.
  • Yes, being tall and attractive helps a LOT
  • she and I connect over being 'naturally' successful

That said, why do you think it's a bad thing? Olympic athletes were born with a leg up physically, and don't you doubt it. Two people can work exactly as hard as one another and one will still be able to run farther and faster. Geniuses are born with a leg up mentally, and don't doubt that for a minute either. Two folks can study exactly as hard and long and one will still get better grades, learn more, and retain more. Genetics is a part of who we are. You happened to be born attractive. If you've got it, use it.

There is nothing inherently wrong with being born with an advantage. Just as there is nothing inherently honorable about being born with a disadvantage.

  • [-]
  • TheBowerbird
  • 8 Points
  • 19:55:45, 15 December

Reading this, I don't really buy that you're Aspergers as formerly classified by the DSM. You may lack social skills, but I see none of the other characteristics. Autism is obviously a spectrum, and so perhaps you're on it, but you seem fairly normal and able to cope far better than most people lumped under that term. Uep's comment is also spot on about your narcissism that you probably haven't realized or dealt with. It almost seems like you're trying hard to to fit a label someone slapped on you when in fact you are borderline antisocial.

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 8 Points
  • 09:47:03, 16 December

[deleted]

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 8 Points
  • 16:31:58, 15 December

You only have to read some of the posts on RA to see how true this is. Half the posts are about somebody's girlfriend who cuts herself or has violent mood swings or hears voices or threatens to kill herself every day, but of course, the chump in question never breaks up with her, because she's haaawwwttt.

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 6 Points
  • 18:21:46, 15 December

Maybe it's an immature 20s thing? There is a line for looks (nobody wants a dog), but there is a lot of leeway. My cousin is a 10/10 and he married a girl thats 5/10 or 6/10. She isn't ugly, but she isn't anything special either. She is nice, friendly and stable. My cousin married her instead of a lot of people and they are really happy. Nobody judged him for marrying an average girl. She made him happy and thats all people cared about.

  • [-]
  • yesbutcanitruncrysis
  • 9 Points
  • 15:32:10, 15 December

I think what you are saying can also be said about almost everything else: Intelligence, education, manners, special talents, income, even character...

What it boils down to is that if you totally excel in one of these areas, you can get through life reasonably well, even if you suck at everything else - temporarily at least. While being outstandingly attractive or intelligent or whatever, one REALLY should try to be at least average at everything else which is relevant in our daily life.

For example, for a long time I made the error of relying on my intelligence too much, thinking "looks are just for superficial people", "who needs social skills anyway" and "hard work is for stupid people". At least, unlike looks, intelligence will get you through life, since it does really fade away with age - but it does diminish somewhat. My plan was to become a decent scientist - and it still is. But of course, having a good sense of humor, decent looks, and some general understanding of other people - skills which I aquired over the years through a lot of hard work - still very much improved my life, and I still have a long way to go, as I still have few friends, no "significant" experiences with the opposite sex, and am overall still unhappy with myself. Still, being hugged by girls at least occasionally and not feeling awkward about it is such a huge improvement compared to my past... I am optimistic about my future.

  • [-]
  • xatm092
  • 5 Points
  • 16:18:55, 15 December

Ah the crazy hot scale. How I met your mother season 3 episode... 7 I believe.

  • [-]
  • sexmachine3
  • 4 Points
  • 17:00:18, 15 December

> All this time, I thought that men were around me because I was interesting and smart, but in reality, they just wanted to fuck me.

This! I was always confused how the hot girls around me (early 20s) never realize this. As a guy this seems totally obvious to me: A lot of guys only talk to girls they want to fuck. And to get in their pants of course you say you like her personality. I guess if you are on the other side it is just hard to tell because you never experience it any other way. I remember telling girls about guys 'this guy doesn't really like you, he just wants to bang you' (and was proofed right afterward he left). They declared me crazy, 'he's just a nice guy'. haha

  • [-]
  • Azoreo
  • 60 Points
  • 14:07:00, 15 December

I went through the same ugly->attractive change. It was downright twilight zone to have women regularly checking ME out. I felt like I was being stared at, and it took a week or two before I asked a female friend WTF and she told me I was HOT. And, it was easier to get away with stuff. If I was a jerk to women, instead of being repulsed, they were attracted (that's fucking weird, talk about reverse psychology), when I screwed up - it was cute/normal, where as a nerd it was because I was a 'loser'.

  • [-]
  • nyxerebos
  • 12 Points
  • 16:33:08, 15 December

> If I was a jerk to women, instead of being repulsed, they were attracted

It's the damndest thing, isn't it? There's a period of my life I'm not proud of, I treated a lot of people badly. Attractive women lapped that shit up. Had a longass dry spell when I got sober, I wasn't being a dick to people anymore. I don't mean bold/confident, I mean being genuinely shitty to people.

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 28 Points
  • 17:06:37, 15 December

[deleted]

  • [-]
  • cesspoolsineden
  • 14 Points
  • 17:41:13, 15 December

>But when someone jeers at me or looks at me with wolfish eyes, it just makes me feel so uncomfortable and vulnerable. Did I ask for your attention? Why do you think you deserve mine? I just want to be left alone!

Seriously! It's the worst. I try to explain to guy friends of mine why catcalls and stares make me feel uncomfortable and not flattered, and they never quite understand, because they would "take it as a compliment."

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 5 Points
  • 18:51:39, 15 December

I hate this. It's like, just because that's how you would react (or, say you would react) that doesn't mean that your feelings aren't valid. It makes you uncomfortable - it makes a lot of women uncomfortable - and when people tell you to just stop feeling that way, it annoys the crap out of me.

  • [-]
  • projhex
  • 4 Points
  • 17:32:12, 15 December

Former ugly duckling checking in as well.

While I was in my teens I was a gangly 6'5" 140lb kid with long hair and Nine Inch Nails tee shirts. No women paid any attention to me and I did not really start dating until I was in my late teens and more seriously into my early twenties.

Fast forward. I am 29 years old now. 6'5" 200lbs in good shape. I regularly get holla'd at while riding my bicycle in spandex. Women tell me they love my beard, how I smell, how I dress and how I cook. I'm no male model I know, and no tanned beach scuba diving instructor like the guy who posted above, but I find that people treat me very well while I am out (partially due to being incredibly tall also) and I have very rare occurrences of people being even slightly negative towards me.

And I still have the same Nine Inch Nails tee from ten years ago, but now I look awesome in it (thanks /r/malefashionadvice) and people don't look at me like some pale metal teen who needs to get a job.

  • [-]
  • corpseflower
  • 18 Points
  • 20:15:45, 15 December

This. Im a male, and I have lost a LOT of weight over the past 5 years (about a hundred pounds), and all it did was cheapen human interaction for me.

All of a sudden, my ideas and experiences were worth listening to. oh Really?

All of a sudden, my feelings were worth preserving. oh really?

All of a sudden, I was a human being.

It disgusted me more than I can easily say. All of my life, I wondered what horrible character flaws I possessed. What horrible things in my soul did people see that made me an un-person in their eyes?

The answer? I was fat. Thats all. That made every other aspect of my existence unimportant. I now have a real contempt for the people around me. The only people i can stand now are the folks who were my friends before I lost weight.

  • [-]
  • TheLeaderIsGood
  • 3 Points
  • 15:25:27, 15 December

I have a bit of a similar "contrast experience" to you, though on the female side. I'm quite glad I grew up not being the pretty girl or the popular girl because later when I became desirable and had lots of friends, I didn't ever expect it or expect it to last so I didn't become dependent on it and, on the negative side, suspected most friendly interactions. Actually by the time I was 25 and heard that women get invisible when they get to 30, I couldn't wait. Now I'm 34, it's brilliant :)

  • [-]
  • Thinks_Like_A_Man
  • 31 Points
  • 21:57:35, 14 December

That is an interesting question that I have pondered myself.

I can tell you that all that false flattery is damaging when you don't realize why you are getting it. False flattery is false validation -- meaning you often attribute things that you do as valuable or acceptable when in fact, people are merely ignoring it because you are beautiful.

For example, one friend I had was far more attractive that I was. She would get drunk and act very inappropriately, like screaming things in a public place that would get anyone else thrown out. She had zero basic table manners and ate like a barbarian -- yet men still took her to expensive restaurants. Because she was so beautiful, men tended to ignore this behavior, but she had very big red flags for emotional problems. Because no one ever called her on her shit, she thought the way she was acting was cute. I tried to teach her how to eat properly and she told me that I was the only person who thought she needed to learn how to cut food with a knife.

Being beautiful is like having a get out of jail free card to excuse your piss poor treatment of others.

That's another thing. There was a point where some of my friends would see how far they could go treating some guy like shit, to see if he would still stick around. It was pretty messed up.

Beauty can sometimes become a sword, but most often is used as an excuse to not have to be a better human being.

I can tell you that I got much further in life from my looks rather than my brains when dealing with other people.

No doubt it is because many men would happily date someone who was extremely hot and very fucked up. I think many men would exchange quite a few sanity or intelligence points for a more attractive woman. One guy told me he would date a woman who was anorexic, schizophrenic or a skank as long as she looked hot. He said he would not date an ugly woman who was very compatible with him no matter what her qualities.

And that's the rub. We reward and value appearance -- which is bad enough -- but we also completely negate any other good qualities if this requirement is not met first.

If I went back, I would not date because I am so disillusioned with the dynamic. All this time, I thought that men were around me because I was interesting and smart, but in reality, they just wanted to fuck me. Honestly, it really makes me sad for the 20-something me. Like all that work I did on myself to be a better person, to be knowledgeable and well-read was a giant waste of time (then), because no one really gave a shit. I could have been a fucking crack whore and cheated on all them and gotten away with it.

I'm having a hard time moving past it all, as you can no doubt tell. I'm not upset about how I am treated now, I am more upset about how I was treated before.

  • [-]
  • raisedbywolves
  • 7 Points
  • 17:18:18, 15 December

"Honestly, it really makes me sad for the 20-something me. Like all that work I did on myself to be a better person, to be knowledgeable and well-read was a giant waste of time (then), because no one really gave a shit." I would hope you kept reading for the ideas themselves and the effort wasn't wasted on such callow youth. As someone who comes from the same circa as you, and pretty in my youth, I can relate to you say, but you didn't mention the wonderful trade-offs we've gotten: as we get older we are so much more comfortable in our own skin, barely self-conscious at all, free to be eccentric because we "are" invisible now. What's most interesting is that now it IS our wit, intelligence and kindness which determines how we are treated, and we get a little recog for our grey hairs, (babies love us...I think the grey, grandma thing is genetic), and once in a while someone does want to fuck us, for all the right reasons!

  • [-]
  • mmotherwell
  • 5 Points
  • 22:20:14, 15 December

I don't know if anyone knows Jane elliot, but she is AWE. SOME!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y2UPNjRvB8 is a great video, in which she berates a woman, and it is the most real thing I have ever seen. "Get Over Cute. Get competent. Get Capable". It was such a powerful moment when I first saw it, and it summed up a lot of what I thought about life.

I genuinely feel sorry for beautiful women who, for 40 some years, live in a world of privilege, and then suddenly, everyone turns on them and they have no idea why.

  • [-]
  • indigo-alien
  • 57 Points
  • 13:44:09, 15 December

I can reply with a similar story about losing the looks, from a guys perspective. 20 years ago I was a beach god working for an international resort company, teaching scuba diving on the beach. This place at the time wasn't much more than a swingers club with a French accent and women would show up specifically for the guilt free, no strings attached sex and I certainly got my share.

I never worried about the other guys. It was a given that with the reputation this place had there would be an imbalance of men and women, and quite bluntly, a lot of guys weren't going to get what they came for. Those guys were up against me and the other beach gods who worked there. Exotic, tanned men speaking several languages, diving all day, playing volleyball until the sun goes down and dancing the night way.

Time and tides wait for no man though, and my genes have expressed themselves. I am my fathers son, and obesity is a problem in my family. I didn't just let myself go after marriage. My wife weighs exactly the same today as she did when we met, thanks to our good eating habits and eating vegetarian 3 - 4 times per week.

I, on the other hand, am an overweight and balding middle-aged man who is very happy to have a loving wife because the PYT's don't even look twice these days. I can imagine the frustration some of those guys had when they were up against me in my beach god days, because that's where I would be if I were still single.

  • [-]
  • yokhai
  • 39 Points
  • 21:40:41, 14 December

My current SO felt this way for along time. I had to burst her bubble. I found it hilarious at the time. But we had weeks of at every turn, if her interactions are normal, or because she is hot. It because quite a burden to think about.

I'm sorry your world view was skewed , but at least you didn't become an entitled beauty queen. You maintained a positive attitude, which is all anyone can really ask.

Better to be naive than a bitch.

  • [-]
  • Thinks_Like_A_Man
  • 73 Points
  • 22:13:30, 14 December

I think because I was so geeky and so into examining the world around, that I do not get too bitter about the whole experience. The funny thing is that I'm pretty much the same person, I just look differently. Sadly, I wonder how "attractive" I would have been without the killer body and face.

I then wonder about how many other really quality women are out there that might be not even ugly, but just average and are ignored?

I can understand why beautiful women believe the world is this way. If I told you that most of the world thought the sky was green, you would think I was insane. If every experience validates the previous one, you begin to accept that this is the way the world works.

I know of one beauty queen who told me that she hated movies like Revenge of the Nerds because it was so unrealistic. She said she didn't know of one kid who was ever picked on in school. It just didn't exist in her world, so it must not exist for other people. She would not believe me that people were not only bullied, but pretty much traumatized over 12 years.

  • [-]
  • yokhai
  • 23 Points
  • 22:36:03, 14 December

Yep. It's hard to see outside that world veiw, because its such a nice world view.

The person who gets shits on his life only imagines a world where everyone is nice and gets along.

The person who's life is a fairy tale can only imagine life is like that for everyone.

Thank you for your words.

  • [-]
  • Ortus
  • 7 Points
  • 15:30:08, 15 December

>but just average and are ignored?

Average women are not ignored. Most men consider average women pretty.

  • [-]
  • darjeelingdarling
  • 96 Points
  • 13:42:32, 15 December

I want to respond because I was really overweight throughout my teens until I was about 25 and then I lost about 70 pounds and my acne cleared up. Turns out I have a perfect hourglass figure and I wear a 32 H (small waist big boobs - they're saggy b/c I lost the weight, but men don't really care that much - boobs are good).

And it has been amazing and a little validating. I used to think to myself, "I bet that person is treating me poorly because I am so fat." And it turns out I was sort of right. It's not so much that people were mean to me b/c I was unattractive but that I really just didn't matter and if I acted like I mattered then I was being a little unreasonable (b/c obviously I am getting in the way of the people who matter).

Now, I'm not even that attractive, but the power is intoxicating. If I walk into a bar alone then someone is probably going to buy me a drink. If I smile at a man he's probably going to smile back. If I want to sit next to someone then they won't look at me like, 'yuck...why is old fatty sitting here.' They're like, 'yeah...attractive chick is sitting with me.'

It's fun, but a little disheartening and disturbing. I'm pretty shy and so I find the unwanted attention (really yucky man please don't try to touch me) unbearable and embarrassing. I'm glad I grew up the way I did. It made me a better person. It made me kinder and more compassionate. I care more about what's inside a person than out.

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 23 Points
  • 14:42:55, 15 December

I hope that some day I can be like you in this respect. I'm an overweight teen right now, and while I don't feel like I'm outright treated poorly for my appearance, I know that no guys are going to prefer me over other girls, simply because I'm not physically attractive. It makes me sad to know that looks are so important, but what can you do...

Do you mind if I ask what you did to lose all that weight? How long did it take you?

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 32 Points
  • 15:04:19, 15 December

[deleted]

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 8 Points
  • 15:09:27, 15 December

I hadn't seen that! Thank you very much! :)

  • [-]
  • jeremybub
  • 4 Points
  • 21:08:38, 15 December

Or she could just do 100 pushups a day.

  • [-]
  • humblesquare
  • 10 Points
  • 15:23:07, 15 December

> I know that no guys are going to prefer me over other girls

Not necessarily true.

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 4 Points
  • 15:44:42, 15 December

Alright, I suppose that's not a rule without exception. Guys do prefer girls who are fit, though, and if there are any chubby chasers around here, I've yet to find them. I know I'm young still, I'm just saying I haven't found much evidence to contradict this.

I can change my weight, though, I just need to start trying harder.

  • [-]
  • Antiquity
  • 8 Points
  • 22:18:58, 15 December

I can relate as well. I sort of have the "ugly duckling syndrome". I've dropped a lot of weight in the past two years, transforming from a huge "one-of-the-guys" kind of girl to finally having a flat belly, oozing sex appeal, no idea how to be around men anymore.

Before, when I wasn't exactly concerned with awkward advances or scenarios, I could enjoy myself as a gamer girl with guy friends. After dropping a lot of weight and achieving Level 9000 Hotness or whatever, it puts a damper on my ability to have guy friends. Situations become less about having fun as a unit, and more attention is dropped into my lap. Girlfriends of my pals are now threatened by my existence, and are catty about everything all of a sudden.

It's an odd change in my life. But I don't really relate to a lot of the girls who are complaining about the attention. I don't mind. It's not difficult to look away or smile politely and lie about having a boyfriend. It's flattering. And I recognize that, while before, I wasn't desirable - I now am. And it's refreshing. Free shit is always nice too, obv.

However, since I've seen both sides of the social spectrum, I'm not too worried about getting old and undesirable again. I love the attention now, but I know the superficiality can be utilized to find a suitable mate, then we can get old and ugly together.

  • [-]
  • a1icey
  • 4 Points
  • 23:18:18, 15 December

wow, i am the opposite to you. i hate the attention so much that i don't even go to bars anymore. unless they're so yuppie and uptight that no one talks to strangers. i look good entirely for myself, not for anyone else - it's only since i've had a really serious romantic relationship that i've had any other reason to brush my hair in the morning.

  • [-]
  • Denny_Craine
  • 56 Points
  • 15:12:23, 15 December

>It's fun, but a little disheartening and disturbing. I'm pretty shy and so I find the unwanted attention (really yucky man please don't try to touch me)

I hope you see the irony in that attitude.

  • [-]
  • needsmorecoffee
  • 17 Points
  • 15:49:59, 15 December

If she's referring to looks, I agree.

On the other hand, "yucky" could easily refer to behavior, not looks. And it's relatively common for some pretty bizarre and disturbing behavior to emerge from some guys around hot women (see also some parts of above posts).

  • [-]
  • 8x8grid
  • 40 Points
  • 15:34:35, 15 December

>really yucky man

There may be criteria for "yucky" other than physical attractiveness. For example, the fact that a stranger wants to touch her may qualify that stranger as yucky.

It's still a really strange attitude for someone who "care[s] more about what's inside a person than out".

  • [-]
  • fidgetymo
  • 11 Points
  • 15:41:07, 15 December

frankly, i think the biological mind is too big a confusion for the opinionated, soap-box mind anyway, and this discussion seems to reflect on that.

  • [-]
  • 8x8grid
  • 15 Points
  • 15:48:24, 15 December

Your sentence is hard to parse.

Are you saying that we have an involuntary biological tendency to treat attractive people better, and that this often overpowers any voluntary efforts not to pre-judge strangers?

  • [-]
  • fidgetymo
  • 6 Points
  • 16:18:03, 15 December

sure, i like the way you put it better.

although in a sense i was also trying to imply the further-reaching "over-powering" implications from the day-to-day sex-biz to this actual thread. (not specifically your reply).

edit: and another thing. "hot" is subjective, we dont have pictures of these hot-redditors (reasons are valid and understood), so we cant confirm "hotness" personally, so therefore its left to our biologically-affected imagination. im reminded of girls ive met who shared similar anecdotes regarding their own hotness, and in my humble/esteemed opinion, they were not hot. but maybe thats beside the point. now, it would appear that the hive-mind generally accepts LagniappeRire's hotness based on conjecture and her point tally, which calls into question the "over-powering" nature of biology simply on this fact. (YUCKY?!?!)

  • [-]
  • fidgetymo
  • 16 Points
  • 15:36:14, 15 December

although maybe the "yucky" relates more to his actions, rather than his looks.

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 11 Points
  • 16:17:33, 15 December

As a woman who has been creepily touched by strange men, that's exactly what it is.

The yuckiness is the weird touching/groping on the sly by a stranger.

  • [-]
  • idkmybffyossarian
  • 11 Points
  • 15:50:38, 15 December

I don't think she necessarily meant 'yucky man' in terms of 'fat/unattractive' man. There are definitely hot, yucky people at bars.

  • [-]
  • 2xyn1xx
  • 5 Points
  • 20:27:11, 15 December

I didn't even get that she was talking about looks. Believe me, there are "really yucky" men out there who, if seen in a picture, would attain movie-star status. Really yucky is not a look, it's a feeling we get.

  • [-]
  • proves
  • 6 Points
  • 22:19:48, 15 December

I'm with you. I'm currently a 31-year-old male, 6 foot and 175 lbs. but in high school and college I was about 50 pounds overweight.

At the age of 25 I began rooming with two people with healthy eating habits and who took fitness seriously. They helped me along and now it is rare when I'm not working-out or doing some type of activity 5 to 6 times a week. While I don't consider myself to be on the level of "hot" I would give some thought to "above average."

Being able to compete in sports (because I like to do that kind of thing) and how I feel day to day has obviously been improved, but the changes I've seen socially blow me away more than anything; they were also the most unexpected.

Once people took notice of my weight loss my opinions were taken more seriously. My presence was noticed and acknowledged more enthusiastically. My career began to take off. (I was also able to get away with a lot more). It was literally like I became a different person acquiring new privileges and more respect.

Although it has been several years since I lost the weight it crosses my mind once in a while, and I'll be honest that it's a motivating factor when it comes to having dessert or skipping a workout.

  • [-]
  • AngledLuffa
  • 24 Points
  • 12:37:30, 15 December

> The ones that were the worst were the creepy middle aged men who would hit on me, thinking that they could somehow fool me into going out with them.

They did it because it sometimes works.

  • [-]
  • lobido
  • 9 Points
  • 12:59:25, 15 December

Yes, and they are still producing testosterone and following nature’s imperatives.

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 16 Points
  • 14:25:01, 15 December

[deleted]

  • [-]
  • WarHymn
  • 17 Points
  • 14:22:07, 15 December

Oh man I can't wait unti I can get some time to write a longer post later today. I was in an accident two years ago. Let's just say I look a lot different now.

  • [-]
  • MeiLewis
  • 16 Points
  • 15:02:19, 15 December

This a fascinating thread and thanks for posting your long and thoughtful answer. What you've said fits really well with what I would have guessed it was like. For reference I'm a 35 year old guy.

Seeing the way hot young women were treated (get attention, get things done for them, get a generally easier ride in many respects) and treated others (with less thought for their feelings, as somehow inferior just because of the way they looked) I thought that some of them really don't know any better, that is they don't realise the priveleges they get purely from looking good, and there were other girls, like the friends you mention, who knew and actively exploited it.

What strikes me most about your jourrney is that what you've now learned about how the world works is kind of a hollow victory. The people that really need to know what you know are the women who are now in their 20s and super hawt, and they in turn won't actually learn until they get older, when it will be too late.

There's thing you said I don't understand at all, what do you mean 'fool'? "The ones that were the worst were the creepy middle aged men who would hit on me, thinking that they could somehow fool me into going out with them."

I they hit on you then you might like them and something might then happen between you, and if you didn't like them then nothing would, so you decide what happens. Were they lyinmg to you they were millionaires or something?

  • [-]
  • Thinks_Like_A_Man
  • 4 Points
  • 00:04:45, 16 December

They would do all kinds of manipulative shit. Thankfully, these men were a rarity. I remember one guy somehow overheard me talking to a friend that I was going to have problems making rent. He wanted to give me money. He was just very creepy. I told him I would borrow it from my parents. He said he wanted to "give" it to me because he could see I was struggling. I was rather naive, but felt it wasn't right, so I said no. He later hit on me. That kind of shit.

I was 19, he was 50. Creepy.

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 16 Points
  • 17:51:48, 15 December

I am sorry that this will not be a popular opinion, but here goes. I don't think you were just hawt when you were younger, you were also quite ignorant. It doesn't matter how hot you are or how much attention you get from men if you do not turn on the news or pick up a book and realize that there are so many other things happening in this world. So many different lives and experiences. And if you shut yourself off from those things because you were hot, that is something you decided. You had the ability to look beyond your accommodating world, it really isn't that hard. We always have reminders of the tragic and horrific things people to do each other, we learn about war in grade school. You must have chosen to ignore these things. That was your ignorance. Not your hotness.

edit: thank you for speaking your piece honestly. I have tremendous respect for the awareness you show now.

  • [-]
  • quasarj
  • 12 Points
  • 18:42:28, 15 December

You know, this reminds me a lot of the episode of House where Chase and Foreman are talking, and Chase feels certain people don't like him because of his looks, but instead because he's a smart doctor.

So Foreman convinces him to go on one of those speed dating things, and to pretend to be a bumbling idiot. He tries it, and all of the women still rate him #1, and he's left with this totally worldview changing incident, where he really didn't realize people only liked him because he was hot.

Interesting, indeed. I have often wondered what it could be like to be attractive. I'm usually invisible, but I'm fat enough that some people are outright hostile, and I feel my worldview may be rather skewed in the opposite direction: I find it hard to believe anyone can go out into public without being afraid.

  • [-]
  • Thinks_Like_A_Man
  • 4 Points
  • 19:58:38, 15 December

I am sorry the world is this way. I can only hope that there is some small comfort in knowing that some people understand and acknowledge it. I think it must be the worst thing is when talking to people who deny this occurs when you are fat, ugly or simply undesirable.

  • [-]
  • timprague
  • 8 Points
  • 13:36:06, 15 December

Hmm... I've thought about this over the years and I think the biggest problem with beauty is that when its gone one no longer knows who one is....
...because so much of who you are (when one is a really really hot female) is tied up with how you look. Note: I am not saying that attractive people are silly for thinking that they are their external appearance...I think society just naturally forces this upon them. The trick (as far as mating-up goes) is to meet someone who understands this and therefor a lot of who you are...rather than the oh so easy alternative of simply being revered. Is that about right?

  • [-]
  • HogglesPlasticBeads
  • 10 Points
  • 16:30:28, 15 December

You should go on speaking tours to high schools. It'd do way more good for our kids than the DARE presentations.

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 7 Points
  • 23:50:04, 14 December

Is this only for women, or is it for men as well? I've never thought of myself as this amazing looking person, but people are generally nice, friendly and helpful. I have a babyface, so it does but a bit of a damper on things, but my parents constantly tell me that looks don't matter as much as what you can do. My mom is the sweetest lady ever and everyone loves her. She is only 45 and I wouldn't say she is Angelina Jolie. My dad told me that at work people don't care how you look, but how you perform. Someone has to be right, or is there a middle? I think that sure some people are nice to those they want to fuck, but most people are decent. Ignore the shallow people and move on with life.

Edit: I am called that weird, quirky, awesome guy, even by women I don't know. I know I'm eccentric and a bit nerdy, but I have never been called creepy or weird.

  • [-]
  • Thinks_Like_A_Man
  • 14 Points
  • 00:58:39, 15 December

I think it is more exaggerated for women than men. While people are generally polite to me and not assholes, they certainly aren't as nice as they were when I was younger.

  • [-]
  • monkkbfr
  • 27 Points
  • 17:30:33, 15 December

Very interesting perspective. And very accurate. I'm an older guy. I'm successful and attractive so I've never had a problem getting women regardless of age. I've dated (and been married, but only once, learned my lesson) to models and I've dated average looking women including more than a few college professors, business executives, ren-nerds and cos-play geeks.

I've come to the conclusion the professors, execs, nerds and geeks are much more interesting than the beautiful ones (who, interestingly and more often than not, don't seem to develop the skills to become professors, execs, nerds and geeks). And the sex is (usually) more interesting as well.

Why? Two things.

One: it's because of the entitled attitude beautiful women have. This isn't their fault; society creates it (as LagniappeRire and Thinkslikea_man point out). And when these beautiful women age (I've remained friends with several of them over the years) they often, mentally, fall apart. They've spent their entire lives developing the skills to use their looks but even the intelligent ones never really developed the skills to use their minds. I've seen this over and over again. It's not their fault. As LagniappeRire points out, being beautiful AND intelligent creates even more resentment so they learn not to develop it, or to hide it (which has the same external effect).

Two: Average looking women are simply more well rounded and have learned the mental and social skills required to operate fully in society. They haven't been treated as though they are special (anymore than an average guy has been).

Youth is great for the young, but it has no intrinsic value (beyond, maybe, stamina). I stopped dating 'younger' women because, frankly, there's not enough life experience there to be interesting when the sex is over. Have you ever tried to hang out with a 21 year old girl for the other 23 hours of the day that you're not fucking? It can be incredibly boring. Not always, but usually. And yes, I'm sure this is true of 21 year old males as well, but, being straight, I have no experience in that area.

Age and experience used to be something that was valued in society. Not so much anymore (particularly here in America, sadly). This is doubly true for women in America. Double that again for older ex-beauties who haven't developed skills beyond looking good (what LagniappeRire calls being cheerful and charming).

It's not fair, but, life isn't fair. It's a poker game and we're all dealt the hand we're dealt. You play it or you retreat into your cave and bark at the world as it moves by. Your choice.

TL;DR: It's all about sex. Get over it and live your life.

  • [-]
  • yenemy
  • 9 Points
  • 13:23:18, 15 December

I must be gay, because I love the way you think (now).

It sounds like you've taken the life lesson handed you by time philosophically, and have learned to see the world in a different way. Not many people get chances like that, so congratulations and thanks for sharing!

  • [-]
  • cynoclast
  • 7 Points
  • 20:53:20, 15 December

This is why people who grew up hot are usually such optimists. They go for years, or decades being eagerly handed everything they want in life, often unaware of the fact that these things are being offered because they want to mate with the hot person, not out of kindness.

If you suspect you're one of these people, and want to see how the "other side" fares, try interacting in some online community while pretending to be a fat neckbeard. Then you'll actually get to see whether or not you've got skills, or if you're floating along on looks.

You'll be invisible to women, and men will taunt you about it. And if you've got no serious skills, then nobody will give a shit about you. But if you do have some skill at something, people will value that, if not you (expect requests to fix computers for free from hot girls).

The short of it is, people are out for themselves, and want to be able to convince themselves that they're better than you at something. So, attractive people can ask people below their league for things and get it without reciprocity (this is the attractive person getting what they want, and the unattractive person being able to lord it over them that they're not capable of it). Less attractive (or less secure) people will hate you for being hotter than them, and want to have something to hold over you in return...

tl;dr: People are selfish and insecure, and will pretend they're not. The results of which can determine the course of your life if you let them. This is stuff you'll learn when you're invisible to the opposite sex for most of your life. You get a lot of time to think.

  • [-]
  • vanillafiasco
  • 6 Points
  • 17:55:08, 15 December

Thank you for this. It made me cry. Reading your acknowledgment of how hard it can be in the world for the rest of us is like getting an apology from every hot girl who ever tormented me growing up. You have what people remember long after looks fade...a beautiful soul :)

  • [-]
  • 2speed
  • 6 Points
  • 19:33:58, 15 December

I'm going off a few assumptions here (mainly that you're caucasian), but imagine being ignored/invisible and treated poorly your whole life, attractive or not. My experience as an African American male living in the U.S. has been just that, and I'm sure it's the same for a majority of the African American people here as well, possibly even abroad.

My point in stating this is that the seemingly preferential treatment that a "hot girl" receives, only applies to just few races of women in my opinion. I've seen some young drop dead gorgeous black women get treated with indifference or worse (although sometimes it's mainly due to attitude). However, I'm only speaking from personal experience, and I'm not a woman, so I'm not an expert in that regard, but it would be interesting to hear the life experiences of women from different races who are considered "hot girls". I'm sure race plays a key role...

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 11 Points
  • 14:54:16, 15 December

There are probably a lot of people who could tell your exact same story, but substituting "money" for "looks."

  • [-]
  • shaurz
  • 15 Points
  • 15:04:13, 15 December

Perfect opportunity to invoke Devo!

It's a beautiful world we live in
A sweet romantic place
Beautiful people everywhere
The way they show they care
Makes me want to say

It's a beautiful world
It's a beautiful world
It's a beautiful world
For you
For you
For you
  • [-]
  • Undertoad
  • 10 Points
  • 16:13:32, 15 December
But not for me
  • [-]
  • moneyfingers
  • 10 Points
  • 17:40:28, 15 December

I'm going to smile and check out every single older woman I see today. I don't care how old, grandma-old goggles are on and set for awesome.

  • [-]
  • WiseBinky79
  • 37 Points
  • 15:31:19, 15 December

I'm a guy that's experiencing the opposite transformation than you did. Even though being a guy is a lot different than being a girl, over the last year, I started to hit the gym, wear a justin beiber like hair style, nice clothes, put in contact lenses and stand taller. What I've noticed is that girls are much nicer to me and more flirtatious- especially the ones that see me as "not in their league" for whatever reason. They don't go out of their way to help me as you describe guys helping you, but they will check me out, become self-conscious and immediately face away or act nervous in a girly, flirtatious way. It's almost amusing to see girls "act cool" or coy. Sometimes, if a girl is overtly sexual, she'll just stare and smile (do any guys out there get "lip lickers" that stare into you like you are a lead from a romance novel?). Granted, most of these are women I would never try to pick up, are not hot at all, are older and homely, but in the past, I was just ignored. The hot girls are easier to approach, but they pretty much seem to treat everyone the same way and ignore them until they're approached.

The other big difference is how I'm treated by other men. Now men see me as competition when they'd just laugh me off before. Guys get real macho around me, much more than they used to. In the past, the macho guys would write me off and either belittle me or "take me under their wing"... but now guys I don't know are much more aggressive with me and instead of name calling will just come right out and say stuff like, "I don't like you." It's not a subtle change, because of the aggression, which has even lead to my first physical fight since I was in the 7th grade. The guy all out sucker punched me just for not recognizing him as "alpha" basically. That and his hot girlfriend left him 6 months earlier and it was valentine's day. I don't take it personally.

tl;dr: I used to be a super geek, now I'm not and so I know that the way good looking men are treated is different than the way good looking women are treated.

EDIT: If any more ex-diggers downvote this because they don't understand what contributing to a conversation means, I'm going to delete this post.

  • [-]
  • antisocialite
  • 12 Points
  • 00:44:13, 16 December

Maybe the downvotes were for the Justin Bieber hair?

  • [-]
  • Serhum
  • 10 Points
  • 16:31:21, 15 December

I'm in the transformation process and I can see certain signs that tells me that people's perception of me is changing.

Like you, I started lifting weights, buying a lot of nice clothes and generally taking care of myself. All this was possible because of a new career, so maybe it's skewed because of the money factor.

In my mind, once you start the positive circle of taking care of yourself, everything falls into place. Confidence goes up, attitude gets more interesting, girls checks you out, confidence goes up. Rinse and repeat.

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 5 Points
  • 15:17:15, 15 December

Is there anything (back then) that would've made you believe that guys were only nice to you for all the wrong reasons?

  • [-]
  • keithburgun
  • 4 Points
  • 15:39:37, 15 December

I don't know, I still feel that you can do a lot by being cheerful and charming, assuming you're not quasi-modo.

  • [-]
  • ThumpNuts
  • 6 Points
  • 15:57:57, 15 December

I think you went from one extreme to the other now. The truth is in the middle here.

You did receive preferential treatment when you were hot, and you do not anymore. When you compare the two experiences, you feel you have lost what you felt you were entitled to.

You CAN certainly overcome the shitty treatment you receive today, even if you are not hot. The problem is, most of us people who were not hot had a lifetime to develop these skills, while you are just learning now.

Being hot was one advantage you had over most other people [not all people] and you took advantage of it to receive better treatment from people. That's great. Now you have to use a new skill, one that does not come easy, or one you have to learn, to give you an edge again.

You receive special treatment when you are hot - of course... BUT, you also receive special treatment when you are RICH, CHARISMATIC, SLUTTY, SMART, AGGRESSIVE, SWEET, RELIGIOUS, FRIENDLY, CONFIDENT, etc...

Some people have it easier - like Hot people. Some people have to work on it a bit more - slutty people. But ALL these people all get preferential treatment. It's all about using what you got... or what you have left.

Hot people have it easiest by far - but they also attract a lot of haters too.

  • [-]
  • ZenBerzerker
  • 4 Points
  • 16:54:00, 15 December

>I simply didn't realize that some men are deeply hostile and only nice to women they want to fuck.

I have tried to explain to many people the difference between a nice guy and an asshole acting nice because he wants something. I have had many women refuse energetically to accept this simple fact. They weren't ignorant (I had informed them), they were in active denial.

Assholes are easy to spot, if you're not in denial about them.

  • [-]
  • cjfrench
  • 4 Points
  • 17:01:44, 15 December

This is exactly how I feel. When I was young, fit and healthy I received attention from men and women constantly. I had the hubris to feel just slightly annoyed by it all. As the years have passed, I've become invisible. It sucks. I'm still the sweet, charming, smart girl I always was just a few years older.

  • [-]
  • nutmeggerking
  • 6 Points
  • 19:47:57, 15 December

See, I had the reverse problem. I went through all of high school being the chubby guy that no one liked. It really does suck how people treat you when you aren't attractive.

Somewhere between high school and college all of that changed. I got into proper clothing and got my ass into shape. Suddenly, "funny" replaced "annoying, and "understanding" replaced "dull and boring" in terms of how people described me. It's discouraging to see how the people who treated me like a peasant in high school consider me part of "their" aristocracy.

I don't mean to sound like I am full of myself. I am far from it. I still have that mental barrier that comes with all the negative reinforcement of going through your youth being invisible and a lot of times I revert back to that thought process (that I am still the chubby kid).

I think a lot of guys go through the same thing I do, where we become more "attractive" with age and the sad thing is a lot of guys end up taking it for granted and ride this newfound attention because they never had it. This is how the "tool" is born.

I think being aware of who you are and who you were are the important factors. I don't forget how I was treated and what I wished for when I was younger. It didn't mean that I wanted the pretty girl to hook up with me (sure I would have loved that), but what I really wanted was for the person I liked to at least not look down on me merely because of how I looked [that was most discouraging thing about high school... you're essentially in a class hierarchy, only you aren't necessarily judged by your wealth but instead you're placed into ranks based on how you look (almost makes you resent your parents)].

Because I don't allow myself to forget that I don't treat anyone differently based on how attractive they are. Coincidentally, having this perspective has also turned me off from going "hunting" at bars/clubs for girls and my attraction to girls is heavily influenced by their personality. You'd be surprised at the beauty you find in people that you previously didn't label as "hot" merely from getting to know them as a friend. I am not saying that physical attraction isn't important, it's very important, but someone's personality can heavily influence how you perceive them physically.

While I doubt you will read this amongst the flood of comments, but you should know that I admire your honesty and perspective on things. You shouldn't feel bad about your past outlook, because you clearly have beauty on the inside. Teach your kids to look for the inner beauty of others, regardless of how beautiful they will be. In the long run it'll make them happier (wouldn't that be an interesting trend. for personality to become an important factor in attraction. Cosmopolitan would have to be replaced with "Psychology Today")

  • [-]
  • day_tripper
  • 4 Points
  • 20:34:29, 15 December

Well, now you know how black people feel :)

Great post, regardless of my snark.

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 3 Points
  • 01:17:59, 16 December

Hrmm. I'm an attractive man and I've always had the same view, that projecting a positive outlook is what affords me so many opportunities and separates me from the debbie downers. I sure hope what you're saying doesn't apply to boys, too, or I'm headed for a heartbreak before too long.

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 21 Points
  • 23:00:53, 14 December

> a naturally large chest (36F). Everywhere I went, men of all ages stared at me. It was really annoying that most didn't even try to hide it. The ones that were the worst were the creepy middle aged men who would hit on me, thinking that they could somehow fool me into going out with them.

I'm not all toned and pretty, but I've always had a generous rack, which got bigger after childbirth. I hate men talking to my chest. I know they stare at it, and I hate it. I would love to wear lower-cut dresses and tops in the summer, but I would end up regretting it due to the unwanted attention, so I don't. I shouldn't have to feel like this. I think maybe half the problem is that I'm well-educated and I know that I'm more than just a big pair of tits.

Also, while I have never knowingly used my looks to get stuff (because really, I'm no oil painting), I am frustrated because my few previously-good external qualities seem to be wasting away. Being a 30-something with an acne problem (when previously, my skin was flawless) has broken my heart. Never take anything for granted...

  • [-]
  • reddirector
  • 26 Points
  • 12:54:58, 15 December

Try the clean pure cotton plillowcase every night method - it works for me and got quite a bit of coverage on reddit a while back.

PS. Also done as a clean pure cotton towel over the pillow every night.

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 5 Points
  • 14:35:31, 15 December

Tried that. I see the point but it doesn't really work. Necking loads of vitamin D and getting enough sleep does though :-)

  • [-]
  • JayTS
  • 13 Points
  • 15:21:26, 15 December

Don't take this the wrong way, but not all guys go nuts for big boobs. The majority undoubtedly do, but I personally find boobs larger than a C to be too big and not as attractive.

  • [-]
  • [deleted]
  • 7 Points
  • 15:23:13, 15 December

Excellent, then I won't have to poke your eyes out when you stare at mine then :-)

  • [-]
  • darjeelingdarling
  • 6 Points
  • 13:43:44, 15 December

You should definitely wear lower cut tops. It seems like this would draw attention to your breasts but it actually makes them seem smaller. Don't go for cleavage just don't go for matronly.

  • [-]
  • sylviad
  • 10 Points
  • 14:23:16, 15 December

My breasts appeared suddenly when I was in 4th grade and were Ds by 6th (which I was completely mentally unprepared for), but it's given me a lot of time to come to terms with unwanted and often downright creepy attention and embrace wearing what makes me feel comfortable and pretty, regardless of cut or neckline. If someone's going to leer at large breasts they're going to do it regardless of what's containing them. Obviously deep v's are going to attract more notice than a turtleneck, but there's no reason to deprive yourself of a comfy tanktop when it's 90 degrees out.

edit: it also gets unspeakably hot where I am in the summer so anything with sleeves or a high collar or, uh, anything really is often a terrible option unless you love sweating bullets.